Track instructors grabbing the wheel

lando · 04-09-2009, 06:49 PM

This strikes me as completely unacceptable. There are variables like "got the student's consent ahead of time" but I don't even think that's OK. You get tunnel vision out there and if you see or feel a hand you weren't expecting, bad things can happen. Especially in a casual/amateur setting like HPDE, "we're going to die" seems like the only appropriate time for forceful intervention.

Am I out of line here? (To be clear, this didn't happen to me, I was just discussing it with a friend)

Zzyzx · 04-09-2009, 06:52 PM

Why the hell would an instructor grab the wheel except maybe in an emergency, like an imminent crash? and even then it sounds like a horrible horrible idea.

lando · 04-09-2009, 06:53 PM

Thank you.

reverseninja · 04-09-2009, 07:16 PM

Most definitely, grabbing the wheel will likely cause whatever was going to happen to be worse.

coredump · 04-09-2009, 07:17 PM

the females of my peoples can't drive for crap so i grab the wheel whenever we park or merge on the freeway. whats the big deal?

flyin_gnome · 04-09-2009, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coredump

the females of my peoples can't drive for crap so i grab the wheel whenever we park or merge on the freeway. whats the big deal?

LOL man speaks the truth I married an Asian gal...

but in all seriousness yeah

to grabbing the wheel. Just a dumb move putting student/instructor/ and other nearby cars at risk

Zzyzx · 04-09-2009, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lando

Thank you.

worse thing I've done as an instructor is slap the drivers hand on the shift lever when they insisted on driving gangster style...

Holding the shift knob does not make you faster nor does it help you turn!!!

coredump · 04-09-2009, 07:26 PM

i imagine during a "we are going to die" situation, upsetting the balance of the car by jerking/grabbing the steering wheel might not be that great of an idea.

coredump · 04-09-2009, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zzyzx

worse thing I've done as an instructor is slap the drivers hand on the shift lever when they insisted on driving gangster style...

Holding the shift knob does not make you faster nor does it help you turn!!!

any lawsuits?

Zzyzx · 04-09-2009, 07:45 PM

only a couple for copying other drivers lines. Who knew that apexes & braking zones were covered under IP law?

strikerflo · 04-09-2009, 07:57 PM

I had an instructor do that to me and it did nothing but scare me into driving absolutely HORRIBLE lines. All it did was induce even more understeer than before, led to blown apexes and me second-guessing EVERYTHING. I spent the whole time puttering around the track, pretty much just waiting for the guy to grab my wheel again and then wait for the guy to tell me how awesome he was and how bad I was at driving.

It's not cool at all. No matter how good an instructor thinks he can steer from the passenger seat, it's NOT going to help the car get anywhere at all if you're driving at anything over 5/10ths.

My vindication came though when after my 2nd session I asked the guy if I'd ever be able to run under 2-minutes at the track with my RSX. His response was "I run in the 1:40s with my car, and that's REALLY fast...so if you're ever going to get anywhere close to that, you might as well get rid of that car...but don't feel bad, you're new at this...don't concern yourself with trying to be as fast as I am."

Last year I ran a 1:32 in my pathetic RSX.

Eat it, wheel-grabber.

**rsxer63** · 04-09-2009, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coredump

the females of my peoples can't drive for crap so i grab the wheel whenever we park or merge on the freeway. whats the big deal?

yeah, mife wife likes to drive in the bike lane... scares the shit out of me.

lando · 04-09-2009, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strikerflo

I had an instructor do that to me and it did nothing but scare me into driving absolutely HORRIBLE lines. All it did was induce even more understeer than before, led to blown apexes and me second-guessing EVERYTHING. I spent the whole time puttering around the track, pretty much just waiting for the guy to grab my wheel again and then wait for the guy to tell me how awesome he was and how bad I was at driving.

It's not cool at all. No matter how good an instructor thinks he can steer from the passenger seat, it's NOT going to help the car get anywhere at all if you're driving at anything over 5/10ths.

My vindication came though when after my 2nd session I asked the guy if I'd ever be able to run under 2-minutes at the track with my RSX. His response was "I run in the 1:40s with my car, and that's REALLY fast...so if you're ever going to get anywhere close to that, you might as well get rid of that car...but don't feel bad, you're new at this...don't concern yourself with trying to be as fast as I am."

Last year I ran a 1:32 in my pathetic RSX.

Eat it, wheel-grabber.

Post of the month.

As people have pointed out, that kind of intervention is most likely going to make things worse.

I think it's a straight ego problem for anyone to do that. Great doers are not always great teachers. It implies the person is just impatient and frustrated with the student's mistakes, which basically means they're not conveying it effectively.

**rsxer63** · 04-09-2009, 08:23 PM

What brought all this up?

lando · 04-09-2009, 08:32 PM

Short story, it happened to someone I spoke with and I flipped out when I heard it. He didn't seem particularly bothered by it, which is not a trend I would like to see accelerate.

Highrev1 · 04-09-2009, 08:43 PM

I can't find the video but it happened to someone locally. They stayed where they were to video a crash. Pocono HPDE crash. The instructor had every right at that point IMO, they wouldn't listen.

Found it...She had every right...She wanted to get away fromt he crash and the guy wanted to tape it.

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/H...f-us_43500.htm

coredump · 04-09-2009, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsxer63

yeah, mife wife likes to drive in the bike lane... scares the shit out of me.

you mean the passing lane?

coredump · 04-09-2009, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zzyzx

only a couple for copying other drivers lines. Who knew that apexes & braking zones were covered under IP law?

lawl. i should start copyrighting bad lines so n00b drivers will have to pay me a royalty to use them.

**rsxer63** · 04-09-2009, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coredump

you mean the passing lane?

no... she drives way to the right. I hope you don't pass there.

coredump · 04-09-2009, 09:11 PM

i was kidding. lol.

i grew up in the 626. mostly populated by Asian immigrants. my horn (on my quick release) wasn't working for a few months. the worse is trying to honk with a broken horn (and waving and screaming frantically) at some Asian woman who can't merge out of the supermarket parking lot correctly.

back in' 05, at one point, we were directing people on how to park in the parking lot so they wouldn't hit our cars at the meet. lawl.

**rsxer63** · 04-09-2009, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coredump

i was kidding. lol.

i grew up in the 626. mostly populated by Asian immigrants. my horn (on my quick release) wasn't working for a few months. the worse is trying to honk with a broken horn (and waving and screaming frantically) at some Asian woman who can't merge out of the supermarket parking lot correctly.

back in' 05, at one point, we were directing people on how to park in the parking lot so they wouldn't hit our cars at the meet. lawl.

coredump · 04-09-2009, 09:14 PM

the sad thing is that after you honk at them, give them both fingers, high beam them, roll down your window and yell at them, throw a few drinks at them, they still don't know what they did wrong and look at you obliviously.

**rsxer63** · 04-09-2009, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coredump

the sad thing is that after you honk at them, give them both fingers, high beam them, roll down your window and yell at them, throw a few drinks at them, they still don't know what they did wrong and look at you obliviously.

strikerflo · 04-09-2009, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Highrev1

I can't find the video but it happened to someone locally. They stayed where they were to video a crash. Pocono HPDE crash. The instructor had every right at that point IMO, they wouldn't listen.

Found it...She had every right...She wanted to get away fromt he crash and the guy wanted to tape it.

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/H...f-us_43500.htm

Wow. That's unbelievable. You're right...she has absolutely every right.

However, I find that completely different from someone turning in too early or late. As long the car isn't running the risk of flying off the track or into someone else...I don't see any reason for someone to touch the wheel. I mean, how is a driver going to learn? I dunno. Until you feel the car understeer or come around too quick, how is an instructor ever going to say "see what happened there? Do you know what you could do differently?" Something to get the driver thinking. Ugh, even thinking about when that guy was grabbing my wheel makes me mad now.

Maybe that might work for some students, I don't know. But it didn't help me one bit.

The funny thing was that when I rode with him, I found he drove exactly the way he instructed. When I was driving he wouldn't say "brake up here" or "look at that part of the track and place your car there" or "turn, turn, turn...". The few times I rode with someone and tried to help out, I tried to be constructive, encouraging and non-invasive. I was a part of the drive almost like a guide (or I tried to be)...not someone there to interrupt it. Did he do anything like that?

No, it was just "NOOOOOOO!" and "STOP THAT!" and "WRONG!!!" and "EEEEEEEHHH" (that's me trying to type out the sound of an instructor trying to make a game show buzzer noise)...and of course, the out-of-the-blue wheel grab.

Ironically, when he drove it was the same thing. No smooth inputs, lots of wheel sawing and stomping on the pedals like they were going out of style...ABS would kick in just about every time. Making driving his car out to seem like it was such a challenge and that he was just some amazing driver for taming such an amazing beast of a car. To me, it just seemed like he was really good at scrubbing speed and upsetting the balance of his own car.

I think this topic is bringing up painful memories for me, lol.

Sorry to ramble. Maybe there's a reason for it, and maybe it could be a helpful instructing tactic, but I just didn't see it when the guy was grabbing my wheel.

Samsonite79 · 04-09-2009, 09:43 PM

Who was your instructor for HPDE? I let them take the wheel sometimes, and sometimes they produced a pretty decent line but if they didn't asked you then it's really scary because they feedback is weird... makes you want to brake or steer harder to the wrong direction causing a crash or worst... Now I'm in HPDE 2 trying to move to 3:-D Yeah, no more annoying instructors yelling at me, except yelling at myself for not taking that corner fast enough.......... haha Good luck Lando.

04-09-2009, 06:49 PM	#1
lando Here goes nothing Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: The East Platform Posts: 5,222 iTrader: (3)	Track instructors grabbing the wheel This strikes me as completely unacceptable. There are variables like "got the student's consent ahead of time" but I don't even think that's OK. You get tunnel vision out there and if you see or feel a hand you weren't expecting, bad things can happen. Especially in a casual/amateur setting like HPDE, "we're going to die" seems like the only appropriate time for forceful intervention. Am I out of line here? (To be clear, this didn't happen to me, I was just discussing it with a friend)

04-09-2009, 06:52 PM	#2
Zzyzx Late Apexer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 5,022 iTrader: (0)	Why the hell would an instructor grab the wheel except maybe in an emergency, like an imminent crash? and even then it sounds like a horrible horrible idea. __________________ “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.” — Ed Howdershelt

04-09-2009, 07:45 PM	#10
Zzyzx Late Apexer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 5,022 iTrader: (0)	only a couple for copying other drivers lines. Who knew that apexes & braking zones were covered under IP law? __________________ “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.” — Ed Howdershelt

04-09-2009, 07:57 PM	#11
strikerflo Go-Go JDM Power!! Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Kenosha, WI Posts: 3,572 iTrader: (10)	I had an instructor do that to me and it did nothing but scare me into driving absolutely HORRIBLE lines. All it did was induce even more understeer than before, led to blown apexes and me second-guessing EVERYTHING. I spent the whole time puttering around the track, pretty much just waiting for the guy to grab my wheel again and then wait for the guy to tell me how awesome he was and how bad I was at driving. It's not cool at all. No matter how good an instructor thinks he can steer from the passenger seat, it's NOT going to help the car get anywhere at all if you're driving at anything over 5/10ths. My vindication came though when after my 2nd session I asked the guy if I'd ever be able to run under 2-minutes at the track with my RSX. His response was "I run in the 1:40s with my car, and that's REALLY fast...so if you're ever going to get anywhere close to that, you might as well get rid of that car...but don't feel bad, you're new at this...don't concern yourself with trying to be as fast as I am." Last year I ran a 1:32 in my pathetic RSX. Eat it, wheel-grabber. __________________ J's Racing Mugen Alex Craft-Square IPS RAYS SWIFT Hotchkis Hondata JDM Honda Racing Gear Cobalt Friction Technologies Prototype Racing Exedy IOPort Racing Bridgestone Racing Videos of my DC5!http://videos.streetfire.net/video/G...ine_174492.htm

04-09-2009, 08:23 PM	#14
rsxer63 Low Flying Whore Ron Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: somewhere in NorCal Posts: 980,328 iTrader: (31)	What brought all this up? __________________ ................. Teams: Team Ranthem, SC Crew Member and Infamous Family RIP Brenda J Aguilar 1964-2002

04-09-2009, 06:53 PM	#3
lando Here goes nothing Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: The East Platform Posts: 5,222 iTrader: (3)	Thank you.

04-09-2009, 07:16 PM	#4
reverseninja Danger to Manifold Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 432 iTrader: (32)	Most definitely, grabbing the wheel will likely cause whatever was going to happen to be worse.

04-09-2009, 07:17 PM	#5
coredump Double D Garage Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 13,308 iTrader: (10)	the females of my peoples can't drive for crap so i grab the wheel whenever we park or merge on the freeway. whats the big deal?

04-09-2009, 07:26 PM	#8
coredump Double D Garage Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 13,308 iTrader: (10)	i imagine during a "we are going to die" situation, upsetting the balance of the car by jerking/grabbing the steering wheel might not be that great of an idea.

04-09-2009, 08:32 PM	#15
lando Here goes nothing Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: The East Platform Posts: 5,222 iTrader: (3)	Short story, it happened to someone I spoke with and I flipped out when I heard it. He didn't seem particularly bothered by it, which is not a trend I would like to see accelerate.

04-09-2009, 09:11 PM	#20
coredump Double D Garage Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 13,308 iTrader: (10)	i was kidding. lol. i grew up in the 626. mostly populated by Asian immigrants. my horn (on my quick release) wasn't working for a few months. the worse is trying to honk with a broken horn (and waving and screaming frantically) at some Asian woman who can't merge out of the supermarket parking lot correctly. back in' 05, at one point, we were directing people on how to park in the parking lot so they wouldn't hit our cars at the meet. lawl.

04-09-2009, 09:14 PM	#22
coredump Double D Garage Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 13,308 iTrader: (10)	the sad thing is that after you honk at them, give them both fingers, high beam them, roll down your window and yell at them, throw a few drinks at them, they still don't know what they did wrong and look at you obliviously.

04-09-2009, 09:43 PM	#25
Samsonite79 Bay Area Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Somewhere Posts: 103 iTrader: (3)	Who was your instructor for HPDE? I let them take the wheel sometimes, and sometimes they produced a pretty decent line but if they didn't asked you then it's really scary because they feedback is weird... makes you want to brake or steer harder to the wrong direction causing a crash or worst... Now I'm in HPDE 2 trying to move to 3:-D Yeah, no more annoying instructors yelling at me, except yelling at myself for not taking that corner fast enough.......... haha Good luck Lando.