Track instructors grabbing the wheel

[Highrev1]

This reminds me of a time went to a HPDE. I had done many and many years of autox. It was with a new group and they put an instructor with me. After I started settling in and getting my laps in at full tilt he asked me to pit in. I was like ....He said he couldn't ride anymore cause I was just "pushing" too hard but go have fun...."I am too old to run like that" Not all instructors are worth having IMO.

[justjim]

This is something I always wondered about. In my first HPDE my instructor grabbed the wheel and I was shocked. We weren't even going all that fast and I know he was just trying to point out the proper lines but when we stopped a little later I told him it was terribly disconcerting and I wasn't comfortable with it. After that he stopped doing it and just talked the rest of the time. A year later, long after I had soloed and graduated to the intermediate group I went to a new track and got an instructor because it was the first time on that track. It was raining alot and the track was really slippery. After nearly a whole day of instruction my car took a sideways jump in the rain on a dogleg and I put a couple of wheels in the grass, although the car was still under control and moving straight ahead and the instructor reached over in a panic and grabbed the wheel albeit to "hold it steady". I gave him a really stern look and asked if that was really necessary and he didn't do it anymore and I think he felt a little weird and he passed me off to solo a couple of laps later. I think an underlying theme in all of these events is that the instructors get scared. They don't know you that well and they don't really know your skill level and don't trust their ability to judge your skill level and as a result they say they are teaching but I really think they are subconsciously just try to protect themselves.

If I ever get up to the level of instructor I don't think I would ever grab the wheel unless I had cleared it with them first. If I was to do so it would be more like doing it on a practice lap to help the student identify the best lines rather than snatching control of the vehicle from the student.

[0.o slow 1.6]

I had an instructor/friend grabbed my wheel once. I was fine with it. We were taking the course slow and i was having a hard time getting this one corner down. As we approach the corner at a slower pace, he just grabbed the wheel and steered my car to the correct line. After that I was able to take the corner comfortably. If someone grab my wheel while I was taking a corner flat out, now thats wrong and shouldn't be done but at slower pace I can find it acceptable(in my opinion).

[lownotslow]

It has never happened to me but I have seen an instructor make a save from the passenger seat when a novice got in trouble near a fence. Beyond absolute emergency situations I see no need for an instructors hands to leave the passenger side of the car, more than likely it will do more harm than help in those situations anyways and if the drive fucks up their own car that's their fault.

[turbo911cm]

Originally Posted by Highrev1

I can't find the video but it happened to someone locally. They stayed where they were to video a crash. Pocono HPDE crash. The instructor had every right at that point IMO, they wouldn't listen.

Found it...She had every right...She wanted to get away fromt he crash and the guy wanted to tape it.

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/H...f-us_43500.htm

Yeah, she had every right to try and move the wheel in that instance. He is one of those idiots that has to rubber neck at an accident scene that I hate so much. Lets all slow down to look at the fender bender.....oh my, her rear bumper has a dent in it, glad I got to see that.- sorry small vent there.

except this idiot is doing it at a track where there is fast moving traffic behind him. hell he could have caused an accident himself with the crap he pulled. there are reasons you keep moving on the track, unless flagged to stop.

[Temptazn_Mark]

I wouldn't say I'm qualified to instruct but I have instructed before.

Never have I grabbed somebody's wheel nor do I plan to.
For the video posted, situation like that, yes I think it is ok for her to grab the wheel. If you're going at speed and relative close to where the crash occured, it isn't a good idea to hit the brakes and try to watch.

If I was a little farther away and saw a crash occur, of course I'd likely pull over to the side because it's safer to slow down and pull over seeing a crash from the distance because you have time to see traffic around you.

Personally, when I instruct, I like to tell the driver what I'm personally feeling in the car. Especially if the driver is new, they might not be able to distinguish what they're feeling.
I'll also point towards where I would like the driver to make their car go.

[JamesL]

This is what we should be discussing fellas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8XRKtvbl3c

[Temptazn_Mark]

Originally Posted by JamesL

This is what we should be discussing fellas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8XRKtvbl3c

.......

[Highrev1]

Originally Posted by JamesL

This is what we should be discussing fellas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8XRKtvbl3c

The instructor acutally caused the over correction...I would be furious.

[Highrev1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQvgJZVLhhU

What was the instructor reaching for here? Think he knew it was coming and trying to downshift?

[JamesL]

Yeah... and according to the info, the student was in the yellow group(equivalent to HPDE3). Drivers should be able to correct their mistakes/spins on their own at that point. No instructor should even be thinking about grabbing the wheel if the ass-end starts to step out.

[JamesL]

Originally Posted by Highrev1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQvgJZVLhhU

What was the instructor reaching for here? Think he knew it was coming and trying to downshift?

Yikes! The tire wall came at the them damn quick!

[coredump]

^

wth happened in there? it's like if he didn't even braked.

[lando]

Yeah that looks like terminal fade. If the brakes were working at all he wouldn't have hit the wall that fast. It's a miracle they were both conscious after that. There are multiple impacts, did the car end-over-end or something?

Damn. The speed of that wall approaching is terrifying.

[edit: utoob comments—huge grain of salt—say he was left footing and hit the clutch instead of the brakes. that would be epic noobsause]

[18463]

Originally Posted by strikerflo

....
However, I find that completely different from someone turning in too early or late. As long the car isn't running the risk of flying off the track or into someone else...I don't see any reason for someone to touch the wheel. I mean, how is a driver going to learn? I dunno. Until you feel the car understeer or come around too quick, how is an instructor ever going to say "see what happened there? Do you know what you could do differently?" Something to get the driver thinking. Ugh, even thinking about when that guy was grabbing my wheel makes me mad now.

Maybe that might work for some students, I don't know. But it didn't help me one bit.

.....

You are probably more right than you realize. I had an instructor once that would help with steering inputs. I won’t call it grabbing the wheel because he would gently reach over and add steering or hold the wheel at the bottom. I could barely see him doing it and mostly I would notice the steering effort changing. He was trying to help me with turn-in and getting the line down. It was my second HPDE and he asked if it was OK before we started. I’ve got it on video and you can barely see when he does it. I’m not sure that it was all that instructive though.

The one time I almost spun and ended up going off the track straight, he never touched the wheel. He told me that during the event I was always driving the car and never a passenger.

[coredump]

it could be he was at a racing school and hit the wrong pedal.

or could be like my friend who learned to drive stick 2 days before skip barber and could barely drive a manual car at skip barber. lol.

[18463]

Originally Posted by JamesL

Yikes! The tire wall came at the them damn quick!

It looks like he went right through the tire wall and into the trees beyond it. Very scary.

[Temptazn_Mark]

Yikes, that would suck if he hit the clutch instead of brake..

I remember that Porsche crash in autocross event a year or two back in the states.

The owner of the Porsche let somebody drive it.. coming into the stop box, he missed the brake and hit the gas and plowed into a few cars......

[hpdaking]

well fellas....i'm doing my first hpde on april 24th....i'm hoping for a good instructor HOPEFULLY!!! i'm really excited but damn after reading this and watching those videos...DAMN!!! that viper hit that wall at a crazy speed....

[sLiCk]

Im surprised at how quickly the intructor reacted to such a violent crash and told the driver to turn off the ignition. Most people would be completely stunned in a crash like that.

[Eye-5]

On my second track day an instructor asked before he did it to aid in showing me in the line. He did it once and ended up putting a wheel off. He apologized and did not do it again. He was a pretty experianced BMW instructor too.

[izerosll]

Originally Posted by Highrev1

I can't find the video but it happened to someone locally. They stayed where they were to video a crash. Pocono HPDE crash. The instructor had every right at that point IMO, they wouldn't listen.

Found it...She had every right...She wanted to get away fromt he crash and the guy wanted to tape it.

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/H...f-us_43500.htm

Wow, I think someone needs to rethink the track paddock layout or at least designate a new area to park. To have cars lined up only 10 feet away from the track with ZERO barrier is dangerous. I'm glad no one was standing in front or next to their cars.

[Tomy]

actually.. sometimes when the car is outta control and notice your wheel is in the wrong direction, they can help u correct it.. but still.. kinda ghey

[NIGHT_HAWK_SHINOB]

Originally Posted by Highrev1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQvgJZVLhhU

What was the instructor reaching for here? Think he knew it was coming and trying to downshift?