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Old 11-06-2013, 10:14 AM   #1
jameso89
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Really annoying me and out of ideas with my Rotrex issue

Hi guys,

I'm from the UK and have an EP3 Rotrex C30-94. MY fuel set up is: Deaschwerks 300lph in tank pump, OEM fuel return line, FPR (reading 54psi at idle), 750 RC injectors and I am running 13psi boost - 396bhp at the wheels.

Here's my issue: Collected my car from mapper a couple of weeks ago. The rain was fairly bad so didnt open her up until I was on a clear dual carriage way about 10 miles away. I was moving up the gears doing about 60mph in 4th, went to squeeze the throttle and slap, the car cut out as it hit around 5k rpm. I took my foot straight off the throttle and eased it back on again, the car spluttered a little but then power came back. It did this twice. I turned around straight away and went back to the mappers. After a couple of tweaks on the laptop he told me to go and give it another go… same thing, this time in 3rd. Back I went again, after a couple of minutes of head scratching we realised I only had about 1/3 of a tank of fuel, could this be the issue? I went down to the garage and filled up, came out of the garage and squeezed the throttle again, this time it went smoothly all the way up to 8000rpm, no spluttering, no cutting out, it was perfect, so I finally set off home (my mappermentioned that I would need a swirl pot and inline pump to stop this happening in future, but for the time being try and keep it above half a tank or dont use full throttle). I was a little bit p*ssed off but at least the car was driving and it was something I could do in my own time.

I came back the A roads as I couldnt be bothered with motorway spray so didnt really get chance to open her up again until I joined the M6 just North of Carlisle. At this point I had approx. ¾ of a tank. I went to squeeze the throttle in 5th gear and it started spluttering again. I eased off straight away and cruised to the next petrol station. I filled the tank to the brim again (£20) and off I went. Coming back on to the motorway I opened her up and bobs your uncle nice and smooth all the way up to 8000rpm. However, I tried this again about 20 minutes later and it cut out, spluttering etc (this was with pretty much a full tank, maybe 1 or 2 notches below). I nursed the car home, didnt even try full throttle again and here is where I stand now.

The confusing thing is that when the tank is brimmed its perfect, but as soon as the needle just moves a touch off full it started cutting out? I also noticed that the car is leaning out when this happens.

Any ideas guys? The car ran perfectly on the dyno, which leads me to believe that something is moving when on the road (i.e. movement of the engine is causing something to push against something else or all the fuel is moving to the back of the tank under high load). Ive read that TPS sensors can be a pain too as I have an RBC fitted and a bigger TB but surely this would do it at other times too and why would a full tank of fuel solve this?

Since I wrote this post I have checked all the lines etc and all were good. I took the car out again and it must have cut out about 10 times in 30 minutes, mainly on corners and roundabouts.... I had 1/2 tank of fuel at this stage. Therefore, it is not just happening at WOT but all the time pretty much.

Cheers,

James
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Old 11-06-2013, 10:28 AM   #2
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I know this is a supercharged setup but I'm moving it to the turbo forum because centrifugals are more like turbos in their setups and the guys here might be bettter able to troubleshoot.

My thoughts...

1.) Datalog?
2.) Pulled the in-tank pump and made sure the line is not kinked, pinched, or loose? That is a common culprit for fueling issues.
3.) Boost leak?
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Old 11-06-2013, 11:19 AM   #3
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I know this is a supercharged setup but I'm moving it to the turbo forum because centrifugals are more like turbos in their setups and the guys here might be bettter able to troubleshoot.

My thoughts...

1.) Datalog?
2.) Pulled the in-tank pump and made sure the line is not kinked, pinched, or loose? That is a common culprit for fueling issues.
3.) Boost leak?
Thanks for moving this.

I have done a datalog, however, I stupidly forgot to enable my wideband lambda. However, I have the datalogs if anyone can help without looking at the fueling?

I currently have the pump out of the car. I am awaiting a new filter from Honda as the old one seemed really dirty. I have also drained the tank as there was quite a lot of swarf in there?

All my boost pipes are welded up... however, the thing that is really annoying me is why didnt it do it on the dyno?
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Old 11-07-2013, 09:16 AM   #4
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We were just talking about this in the chat. A lot of people dont run the stock sock. I think walbro sells one if you wanna look into that. Also Iboost is selling a swirling pot if your interested. Not sure if he will want to ship it over seas or not, but worth a shot. Also just for future reference, your questions are more likely to get answered if you ask in the turbo chat. A lot of the guys dont look at these threads because they are usually "I wanna turbo, I dont wanna spend more then blank or I wanna make 1000hp."
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Old 11-07-2013, 09:30 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Rmenjoi33 View Post
We were just talking about this in the chat. A lot of people dont run the stock sock. I think walbro sells one if you wanna look into that. Also Iboost is selling a swirling pot if your interested. Not sure if he will want to ship it over seas or not, but worth a shot. Also just for future reference, your questions are more likely to get answered if you ask in the turbo chat. A lot of the guys dont look at these threads because they are usually "I wanna turbo, I dont wanna spend more then blank or I wanna make 1000hp."
That is very interesting. I will have a look into a walbro filter mate.

I shall ask Iboost if he will ship the swirl pot too. What in-line pump & filter would you guys run with the pot? Bosch pump and aeromotive filter?

I'm just hoping my issue isnt electrical. Would you be able to tell me if its TPS or boost cut if I post up my datalog without the wideband enabled?

Thanks again
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Old 11-07-2013, 10:56 AM   #6
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That is very interesting. I will have a look into a walbro filter mate.

I shall ask Iboost if he will ship the swirl pot too. What in-line pump & filter would you guys run with the pot? Bosch pump and aeromotive filter?

I'm just hoping my issue isnt electrical. Would you be able to tell me if its TPS or boost cut if I post up my datalog without the wideband enabled?

Thanks again
Swirl pot for a low hp build, that seems way overkill and probably not your issue. I ran the walbro in tank for a year or so making 550 with a gt35r, never had those problems. There are many others that have used in tanks with no problems, except hose issues. the line would come off all the time even when using the correct gates hose but that a different issue.

Your fuel setup should be fine to support your needs. I would guess that there is an install issue and/ or tune issue. If your tuner sent you home right after the dyno with no expectation of a street tune either he/ she is incredible or doesn't know what they are doing.

Post picks of the setup and fuel cage.
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Old 11-07-2013, 11:05 AM   #7
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I forgot to ask, are you running a meth injection by chance?
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Old 11-07-2013, 12:45 PM   #8
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I forgot to ask, are you running a meth injection by chance?
No not running meth mate.
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Old 11-07-2013, 09:38 PM   #9
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it's your fuel pump set up....I have the same pump and have been experiencing the problem for over a year now (just too lazy to fix it). Take the fuel cage out and make sure that everything can move freely, i.e. no kinks. I plan on getting rid of my pump and going with something different.
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Old 11-07-2013, 09:48 PM   #10
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it's your fuel pump set up....I have the same pump and have been experiencing the problem for over a year now (just too lazy to fix it). Take the fuel cage out and make sure that everything can move freely, i.e. no kinks. I plan on getting rid of my pump and going with something different.
Yeah that's what I was thinking too, that's why I asked for pictures. I think he is using stock feed somehow since he stated he is using stock return. Still need to know the whole story before final blame is placed on the tuner, I have seen a lot over the years.

NJK20 - If you need a complete setup minus filter PM me, I will have my old one for sale soon. I just need to remake the custom SS lines with new hose.
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Old 11-08-2013, 02:22 AM   #11
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Yeah that's what I was thinking too, that's why I asked for pictures. I think he is using stock feed somehow since he stated he is using stock return. Still need to know the whole story before final blame is placed on the tuner, I have seen a lot over the years.

NJK20 - If you need a complete setup minus filter PM me, I will have my old one for sale soon. I just need to remake the custom SS lines with new hose.
guys, I can't get pictures of the set up at the minute as I have taken the pump and all housing out of the tank. I have taken it all apart to check for splits in the hose etc. I am also waiting for a new filter from honda. Hopefully, I should be able to put it all back together this afternoon and then I will get some pics

Basically this is my set up: I have a AN 6 bulkhead fitting into the top of my pump housing, this is my 'new feed line'. In the tank I have some 'in tank hose' coming off this bulkhead fitting connected to the top of the pump. I then have the OEM feed 'blanked off' with a piece of hose and plug. On the return side, I am using the OEM feed line. This connects to the top of the pump hosing normally. Then inside the tank I have some hose coming off this and connected to the bottom of the pump (this helps stop any fuel starvation issues). I will have a look to see if I can find some pictures of how mine is done. Bare with me.

So, we think it is the pump? I have also had a reply from jaydee saying that he had very similar issues and it was his Kpro?
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Old 11-08-2013, 02:37 AM   #12
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OK, so this is my friends set up (hope he wont mind me using his photo), but mine is identical to this as I have described above.

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Old 11-08-2013, 05:24 AM   #13
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I had a very similar problem not too long ago. pulled the fuel cage. and inspected. my line from pump to bottom of cage was split at the clamp. cut the busted part out and re clamped and my problem was solved.


what was the part number for the OEM Honda fuel sock you ordered?
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Old 11-08-2013, 08:48 AM   #14
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That looks fine but what we are all getting at is that there is more than likely a gap or something pinched, cut, or kinked in YOUR setup. Personally, I would ditch the maxi pad, run an inline filter, and I suspect your issue is that the fuel pump is cavitating or getting exposed to air at some point during driving. That could explain why it doesn't appear on the dyno.

To recap, I suggest either ditching or replacing the maxi-pad, using fresh, new Gates submersible fuel line for the pump, and using actual fuel injection clamps rather then standard hose clamps.

Good luck.
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Old 11-08-2013, 09:44 AM   #15
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I had a very similar problem not too long ago. pulled the fuel cage. and inspected. my line from pump to bottom of cage was split at the clamp. cut the busted part out and re clamped and my problem was solved.


what was the part number for the OEM Honda fuel sock you ordered?
Part number for the filter set is: PFKL365729

I am going to re-do all the hoses and filter and use proper clips and in-tank fuel hose. Fingers crossed this will sort it. One question I have is that if I get rid of the oem maxi-pad filter and just use an in line filter, what happens if the pump picks up some swarf in my tank? Will it damage the pump?

I do plan on also running a swirl pot with in line pump too.
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Old 11-12-2013, 04:50 AM   #16
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Bit of an update on this:

Took the tank off on Sunday to give it a good clean out and came across this:



Obviously not ideal and not sure what it was but it has gone now. Can't be 100% if this was causing the issue as there were a few other things I changed. Replaced the filter and all hoses on the 'pot', used new clips and ditched the OEM regulator (it wasnt hooked up) but it was just sat there so binned it as no need for it. Also, on the return line I put the little venturi clip on the bottom of the tub which was missing.... Put it all back together, made sure no lines were kinked and went datalogging. Car now runs perfect, no cutting out etc, ran it down to just above empty and went around the troublesome roundabout a good 6 times with no cutting out.

Problem seems to be solved. Just wanted to put this up to help others who may come across something similar. Thanks to all you guys that provided useful input of things to check etc, I really appreciate it.
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Old 11-14-2013, 05:23 AM   #17
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sounds like a fuel issue.
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Old 11-14-2013, 06:21 AM   #18
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stupid question did you use SUBMERSIBLE fuel line or just fuel injection line when you plumped the pump in the tank? ive seen this issue 2x so far, people use normal fuel injection line and the non-submersible lines outer layer is eaten by the fuel, cracks/dryrots
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Old 01-13-2014, 01:02 PM   #19
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fuel issue is back :(

Hi guys,

I started this post a while ago now and eventually the problem was solved. I took the fuel pump assembly out and changed the filter and all hoses. I also cleaned the tank out (dropped it from car to clean). My issue of cutting out around corners and under WOT went away and the car drove perfectly... for a week, I did not touch anything in this week. Now I have a new issue...

I went on a 60 mile trip. On the way there I noticed my AFR gauge was reading slightly lean... but the car was driving fine. I didnt think or worry too much about it as it wasn't too bad. However, I was driving back up the motorway when I noticed my AFR gauge started reading really lean. The car started misfiring like mad so I pulled over. I checked the fuel pressure and it was down to 15psi. First thing I though a hose had popped off in the tank or I had a leak. I had to get recovered home. The next day I took the pump out again and checked everything, no leaking hoses, no splits etc. I changed everything AGAIN anyway just to make sure. I popped everything back in and turned the key. Now the car idles fine and the fuel pressure reads 58psi... it should be 70psi (this is what it was mapped at). I took the car out for a drive and the misfires were still present but I managed to crawl back home.

I have tried everything, hardwiring the pump, all fuses, checked for vacuum leaks and nothing. I am starting to think it is an electrical fault though as everything else has been covered. I have also tried two different pumps and still the same, hence me not thinking it is a dodgy pump. The FPR is an aeromotive one and is practically brand new... hence why I don't think it is that. I have also checked the vacuum line attached to it for any signs of fuel and none.

When I turn the key to ignition I can hear the pump prime no problems, I go around to look at the Fuel pressure gauge on my regulator and it starts off at 70psi and gradually drops to 0 in about 30 seconds... is this normal?

When the engine is idling and the throttle is blipped the fuel pressure rises to about 60psi but then drops to 55psi then settles back at 58psi...

I'm all out of ideas really so wondered if any of you guys could shine a light on it for me?

I am doing an engine compression test tomorrow to check for any damage I may have done whilst running lean.

Any ideas would be gratefully appreciated.

Cheers,

James
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Old 01-13-2014, 01:25 PM   #20
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I would look at the regulator, then.
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Old 01-13-2014, 04:07 PM   #21
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Pressure is set way to high. Just think. That pump wants to idle at 70psi, plus once you get into boost its going to rise 1 to 1 so 13psi would make it 83 psi. Have you seen the flow chart of your pump at 83 psi on 14 volts. What injectors are you using. Tuning on a dyno is one thing but doesn't account for actual road load. And is good to test on a/f after. Norm is in add 5-10% fuel in boost I believe. Which way do you have your lines run on your fpr?
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Old 01-13-2014, 04:12 PM   #22
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Also have you checked to see if the adjustment screw on the fpr has backed off? Take the vac line off the fpr, plug the line with your thumb and adjust your base pressure back to what it was before the tune started and plug the line back in also tighten down the jam nut afterwards
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Old 01-14-2014, 03:12 AM   #23
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Thanks for your reply. I'm not too up on fuel pressure I will be honest, however, I left it in the tuners hands and I just remember seeing the gauge at 70psi after it was mapped. I am running RC 750 injectors. A few people have said that I could have a leaking injector allowing fuel to leak into the engine causing my misfire and low pressure? I have checked the allen key and nut on the FPR and all is nice and tight.

A guy I know had an idea of priming the pump and putting some mole grips on the feed line before the injectors the fuel line to see if the pressure held. If iit held then the injectors and FPR are working good, if it didnt then one of these two are at fault and letting fuel leak back to the tank or into the engine? Sound like a good idea to try?
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Old 01-14-2014, 09:44 AM   #24
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I would try to bump they fuel pressure back up to 70 like the tuner had it. And see if the lean issue goes away. If the pressure isn't what it was at the time of the tune then the map is useless because the computer doesn't see the pressure via a electronic sensor so it doesn't know what pressure is coming in. It only knows what the tps and map are doing and reads off the fuel map and ignition map. Example the fuel map is at load 7psi rpm4500 it knows a certain signal. Now you have 60psi pressure behind the injector instead of 70psi. When that injector opens which psi is going to let more fuel in. Obviously 70psi which is what it was tuned for. So now at 60psi you have less fuel coming in causing a lean condition.
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