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Old 02-15-2010, 10:54 PM   #1
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Two Party System

I realized today that it really doesn't matter whether or not the republicans are right or wrong for holding things up in the senate, likewise it doesn't matter if you think that what they are doing is holding things up or just not being listened to. The point is that they have to, or they are admitting that the Democrats are right. How will they ever be re-elected if the other side is already right? This goes for both sides, I'm not republican bashing. Obviously were not going to solve the worlds problems here but what do you all think? Am I totally off base? Are these the consequences of a 2 party system? Would more parties even help alleviate this? Or is it the fault of media (I think they have a lot to do with it). Does this mean that Bipartisanship is nearly impossible?
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Old 02-15-2010, 11:59 PM   #2
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humans are too stubborn...and in the case of our two party system, too held down by special interest groups.

what we need is a government run by philosophers like in Plato's "Republic"...lol, sort of joking...sort of.
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Old 02-16-2010, 11:51 AM   #3
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the problem is they are more worried about being reelected than actually governing. it's their job and they want to keep it. which is why we should remove the possibility of reelection. no one should be allowed to be a "career politician". working in an elected position should be a 1 time only thing, then you go back to your real job. even better, lets get rid of elections. they heavily favor the rich and well connected, so it's no wonder these are the people who end up getting elected. a better system would be sortition imo. kinda like jury duty, but for government positions.
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People in general are idiots; the religious are just organized about it and thus much more accomplished.
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Old 02-16-2010, 12:37 PM   #4
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One party system.
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Old 02-16-2010, 01:00 PM   #5
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the problem is they are more worried about being reelected than actually governing. it's their job and they want to keep it. which is why we should remove the possibility of reelection. no one should be allowed to be a "career politician". working in an elected position should be a 1 time only thing, then you go back to your real job. even better, lets get rid of elections. they heavily favor the rich and well connected, so it's no wonder these are the people who end up getting elected. a better system would be sortition imo. kinda like jury duty, but for government positions.
I actually agree with getting rid of re-elections, but as far as sortition, I think there are too many stupid fucks in the world.
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Old 02-16-2010, 03:52 PM   #6
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I actually agree with getting rid of re-elections, but as far as sortition, I think there are too many stupid fucks in the world.
agreed, for sortition to work you would need to have some basic requirements to be eligible for the position. age, education, etc. what exactly those would be are up for debate.
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People in general are idiots; the religious are just organized about it and thus much more accomplished.
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Old 02-16-2010, 06:19 PM   #7
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One party system.
I'm in for a no party system. no little letters next to your name, no party money, just people trying to get elected to represent the people.
enough of the stupid 'us v them' blame game pigeon holing crap already.
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It's hypocrisy stacked upon ignorance fueled with a healthy dose of dishonesty with bullshit sprinkles.
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Old 02-16-2010, 06:34 PM   #8
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One party system.
No...

alcoholics AND stoners... +

It takes both for CHANGE!!!

I could be wrong though...
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Old 02-16-2010, 08:18 PM   #9
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No Party System

No Party System

Parties are not in the constitution. They are not an official part of the government. They are private organizations, like country clubs or fraternities.

We should officially make all government positions non-partisan. In Oregon, this is true of judges, Portland city council, and lots of other positions.

Many of the founding fathers were against the idea of political parties. Not banning them was, perhaps, their biggest oversight.

Ooooh get educated on the interwebs:
http://edhelper.com/ReadingComprehension_34_26.html

1 Throughout the history of the United States, there have been two main political parties. Starting with the Federalists and Anti-Federalists, the parties have developed over the years to the current system - Democrats and Republicans. Although the freedom to create new political parties exists, no other party has been able to gain the support they need to develop. These minor parties usually focus on specific issues and lack the following to win a national election. The majority of the voters believe their vote will count only when it is used to select a candidate from one of the two major parties.

2 Many of the Founding Fathers had a negative view of political parties. Despite their objections, many of these men found themselves affiliated with a political party during their careers in government. As parties came into being, one would gain and hold prominence for many years. In our history, five major party eras have emerged.

3 From 1796 to 1828 the first political parties were formed. During the time when our country was in its formative years, two opposing factions arose. Each was concerned with how the new government was to be organized. The Federalists believed in a strong central government and supported the ratification of the Constitution. Additionally, they supported industrialization, a national bank, and government aid to build roads and canals. The Anti-Federalists - who were eventually called the Democratic - Republican Party, held the opposite views. The Anti-Federalists strongly supported the rights of the states. They were opposed to a national bank and favored farming over manufacturing. They were firmly against the government helping to further industrialization by building roads and canals. The Federalists won their cause for the Constitution. However, efforts by the Democratic-Republican Party to influence people to the Anti-Federalist cause eventually weakened the Federalists. By 1824, the party was virtually non-existent.
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Old 02-16-2010, 09:03 PM   #10
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nebraska has nonpartisan elections i believe
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Old 02-16-2010, 11:16 PM   #11
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i want a 5 party system like canada, b/c canada rox
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Old 02-16-2010, 11:30 PM   #12
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the problem is they are more worried about being reelected than actually governing. it's their job and they want to keep it. which is why we should remove the possibility of reelection. no one should be allowed to be a "career politician". working in an elected position should be a 1 time only thing, then you go back to your real job. even better, lets get rid of elections. they heavily favor the rich and well connected, so it's no wonder these are the people who end up getting elected. a better system would be sortition imo. kinda like jury duty, but for government positions.
Sounds interesting, but how would we account for people who either have no real interest in doing it, or even worse intend to do harm once in position?I agree with you on premiss though, that being re-elected seems to be the driving factor for politicians, rather than honest governance. I also agree with you on that Generally, only the wealthy will be able to be elected to major positions; I may be the best president in history, but I don't have enough money to run. Ive always thought that there should be 0 personal financing for campaigns and 0 contributions. There would be a certain amount allotted by the federal government, and equal numbers of tv spots on high volume channels for say the 4 or 5 most serious candidates. Depending on the position.

Are the people in some part to blame as well? We generally champion headlines that that attempt to trash those we disagree with rather than just providing an honest fact based story. Additionally most americans get nearly all of their information from a handful of hour long infotainment television shows per week (I am not always excluded from this demographic). So when It comes decision time we seem to know more about the worst things the other side has done than how good ours is.

I think elections can and often do work, however, the fact that more people voted for American Idol than the Presidential election shows that we are not really doing our part to ensure such a system works as intended. I also think that "career" politicians are a great thing, they allow for a certain continuity in our government so that we at least stay on a steady path toward small progress rather than the volatile sporadic that I think sortion might give us. If we were able to know more about the actual governance and policy making that occurs rather than be fed constant doses of politics we would better be able elect and keep honest, hard working leaders.
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Old 02-16-2010, 11:36 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9/11 RSX-s View Post
No Party System

Parties are not in the constitution. They are not an official part of the government. They are private organizations, like country clubs or fraternities.

We should officially make all government positions non-partisan. In Oregon, this is true of judges, Portland city council, and lots of other positions.

Many of the founding fathers were against the idea of political parties. Not banning them was, perhaps, their biggest oversight.

Ooooh get educated on the interwebs:
http://edhelper.com/ReadingComprehension_34_26.html

1 Throughout the history of the United States, there have been two main political parties. Starting with the Federalists and Anti-Federalists, the parties have developed over the years to the current system - Democrats and Republicans. Although the freedom to create new political parties exists, no other party has been able to gain the support they need to develop. These minor parties usually focus on specific issues and lack the following to win a national election. The majority of the voters believe their vote will count only when it is used to select a candidate from one of the two major parties.

2 Many of the Founding Fathers had a negative view of political parties. Despite their objections, many of these men found themselves affiliated with a political party during their careers in government. As parties came into being, one would gain and hold prominence for many years. In our history, five major party eras have emerged.

3 From 1796 to 1828 the first political parties were formed. During the time when our country was in its formative years, two opposing factions arose. Each was concerned with how the new government was to be organized. The Federalists believed in a strong central government and supported the ratification of the Constitution. Additionally, they supported industrialization, a national bank, and government aid to build roads and canals. The Anti-Federalists - who were eventually called the Democratic - Republican Party, held the opposite views. The Anti-Federalists strongly supported the rights of the states. They were opposed to a national bank and favored farming over manufacturing. They were firmly against the government helping to further industrialization by building roads and canals. The Federalists won their cause for the Constitution. However, efforts by the Democratic-Republican Party to influence people to the Anti-Federalist cause eventually weakened the Federalists. By 1824, the party was virtually non-existent.
Thanks for the info, I think Washington himself actually warned against party politics.

But to play devils advocate, isn't it true that parties can facilitate a coordinated movement? rather than just trying to find out what we like about every single person we elect, I think there were 30 something odd positions I voted for in 08' as much as I would love there is just no way I can research all of them.
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Old 02-16-2010, 11:40 PM   #14
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No...

alcoholics AND stoners... +

It takes both for CHANGE!!!

I could be wrong though...
On that note though, how about legalizing marijuana? isn't that sort of a partisan issue that has generally been shut down because of disinformation, fear, and malice?
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Old 02-16-2010, 11:43 PM   #15
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Ok

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Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post
agreed, for sortition to work you would need to have some basic requirements to be eligible for the position. age, education, etc. what exactly those would be are up for debate.
Ok

Were here, what would the requirements be? Age? Citizenship? Criminal background kind of things?
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Old 02-16-2010, 11:46 PM   #16
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Thanks,

So far love the posts, thanks for keeping it clean and moving foreword.
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Old 02-17-2010, 02:25 AM   #17
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the two party is kinda ideal because you do get the majority vote. However, special interests, getting re-elected, and all the other bullshit just makes it a pain in the ass. It seems like it's getting worse too, as its a us vs. them debate every step of the way.
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Old 02-17-2010, 11:36 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnavaille View Post
Thanks for the info, I think Washington himself actually warned against party politics.

But to play devils advocate, isn't it true that parties can facilitate a coordinated movement? rather than just trying to find out what we like about every single person we elect, I think there were 30 something odd positions I voted for in 08' as much as I would love there is just no way I can research all of them.
One of the biggest problems with parties is that we always end up with two strong ones splitting the vote while all the rest are marginalized. You don't dare vote for some 3rd party guy because doing so is throwing your vote away and in effect you are helping the guy from the party you hate get elected.

Most people don't vote FOR a person or party, but rather against the other party. It is in effect a fucking protection racket.

"Hey, wouldn't it be a shame if you had to go to Canada to get an abortion."

Or, "Hey, wouldn't be a shame if we forced you to keep your kids in public schools with all those gang bangers."

Just look back at the history of which ever two parties had control at the time. It is a fucking joke. The bastards keep the divide close to 50/50 on purpose.
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Old 02-17-2010, 01:59 PM   #19
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whatever party will expand homeland security and arbitrary military spending.

also. stricter drug laws and putting more people in prisons.
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Old 02-17-2010, 03:51 PM   #20
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whatever party will expand homeland security and arbitrary military spending.

also. stricter drug laws and putting more people in prisons.
I agree.

We do need to be much more strict with drug laws.

There aren't NEARLY enough people in our overcrowded prisons for minor weed charges.

That is the NUMBER ONE problem our nation faces....drugs and WEED SMOKAGE!!!

One of these days these crazed "stoners" will consume ALL the potatoe chips!!!

I'm seriously gonna fire up a hog leg and think of a solution solution to this problem...

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Old 02-17-2010, 04:46 PM   #21
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whatever party will expand homeland security and arbitrary military spending.

also. stricter drug laws and putting more people in prisons.
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Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg View Post
I agree.

We do need to be much more strict with drug laws.

There aren't NEARLY enough people in our overcrowded prisons for minor weed charges.

That is the NUMBER ONE problem our nation faces....drugs and WEED SMOKAGE!!!

One of these days these crazed "stoners" will consume ALL the potatoe chips!!!

I'm seriously gonna fire up a hog leg and think of a solution solution to this problem...

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Old 02-17-2010, 11:16 PM   #22
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Quote:
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One of the biggest problems with parties is that we always end up with two strong ones splitting the vote while all the rest are marginalized. You don't dare vote for some 3rd party guy because doing so is throwing your vote away and in effect you are helping the guy from the party you hate get elected.

Most people don't vote FOR a person or party, but rather against the other party. It is in effect a fucking protection racket.

"Hey, wouldn't it be a shame if you had to go to Canada to get an abortion."

Or, "Hey, wouldn't be a shame if we forced you to keep your kids in public schools with all those gang bangers."

Just look back at the history of which ever two parties had control at the time. It is a fucking joke. The bastards keep the divide close to 50/50 on purpose.


So It's not really a problem with our system in general just the way we use it? But it is the way it is for a reason, I think this is another example of a great idea being destroyed by people using it for their own purposes. It's funny to me that the entire United States is seemingly represented by two parties though. Right now it seems like two fractionalized parties are disastrous because nothing gets done, I'd like to see if more unified parties would get more or less done. I think the media has a lot to do with that seemingly 50/50 split, if one side was ever an overwhelming majority and everyone knew who was going to win why would they watch the election coverage and other political programs, I think if governance were more of a priority to people we would be a lot better off as well.
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Old 02-17-2010, 11:21 PM   #23
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So what do we think, are the Republicans "just stalling" for political reasons and making sure the 2 party system doesn't work while they are not in charge? Are the Democrats the ones to blame for not being more open and bipartisan towards republicans?

*Evidence is great, unsupported opinions are fine as well; just no bitchy bickering and tit for tat type arguments.* — Thanks
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Old 02-18-2010, 04:25 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by rnavaille View Post
So It's not really a problem with our system in general just the way we use it?
What I'm saying is that parties, two or otherwise, are not an official part of our system of government. They are run by various elites to control the government and mislead the general population. They turn everything into a black/white evil/good sound bite. Nothing more than intentionally mind numbing and polarizing propaganda.

It would be much harder to get away with that kind of obvious manipulation without the hollow ideologies of the parties to hide behind.

Yes, both parties try to obstruct the other for political gain, but they agree on one thing: Distracting the voters with bullshit while they quietly do the bidding of their elite masters.
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Old 02-18-2010, 07:26 PM   #25
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