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Old 12-02-2002, 05:23 PM   #1
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I finally have some pics.

Still working on some higher resolution pics, I took these with my digital camcorder (640 X 480).

The whole point was, out of the way, simple but clean, and the ability to remove the box if necessary.

Click here chief!
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Old 12-02-2002, 08:00 PM   #2
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Looks good! The only thing I don't like is the fact that the one amp is mouted to both seats so you can't lay only one seat down if needed. I personally would have put it on the back of the drivers side seat so that both amps are on individual seats allowing you to lay one seat down if needed. I would then mount the cap maybe underneath the amp horizontally instead of vertically, unless you can squeeze it beside the amp vertical while still allowing the seats to lay down individually.
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Old 12-02-2002, 08:03 PM   #3
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The dimensions of the amp wouldn't allow for that, plus I wasn't really concerned with laying individual seats down.

Thanks for the feedback!
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Old 12-02-2002, 08:09 PM   #4
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Looks nice alpine. Do you get any dimming?
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Old 12-02-2002, 08:23 PM   #5
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Not a bit, I have an Optima Yellow Top (D34/78) under the hood.
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Old 12-03-2002, 08:48 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by alpinersx
Not a bit, I have an Optima Yellow Top (D34/78) under the hood.
how is that going to help anything?
batteries do nothing for light flashing.
a battery has a static voltage of 12.8 volts the alternator runs at 14.2 volts
light flash occurs because the voltage of the electrical system fluctuates between the 14.2 and 12.8 voltages during bass beats where current is in high demand.
since you have a cap that would be the most likely reason you dont have problems. a cap will attampt to maintain the voltage at 14.2 not a battery.

also recently i learned that honda uses a different type of voltage regulation that most cars. a honda voltage regulator will wait for a change in voltage before it sends more voltage to the stator of the alternator. all alternators use this method to up the output of the alternator.
but on a honda it seems that using a cap is very bennificial because a cap has just enough storage to allow the regulator the time it needs to get the alternator running at a higher output.

even if you add another battery the only thing you gain from it is time in the parking lot with engine off and the system playing because your yellow top battery has more storage.
in fact adding another battery will only cause additional load on the alternator to charge it.
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Old 12-03-2002, 10:25 AM   #7
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Early bird gets the worm... was going to give that same it's-probably-your-cap-and-not-your-battery spiel... ah well. Yeah. What he said.
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Old 12-03-2002, 10:37 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Flusterphonic
Early bird gets the worm... was going to give that same it's-probably-your-cap-and-not-your-battery spiel... ah well. Yeah. What he said.
lol yea i knoew i could trust you to be on the same page as me.

i should just copy a nice long post i made about 3 weeks ago on this subject in detail. it seems this very same subject comes up in every forum.
then i should paste it so i dont have to retype the whole thing.
for some reason this seems to be one of the most missunderstood aspects of caraudio and unfortunatly caraudio shops and Optima battery corp are getting really rich off of these misunderstood rumors.
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Old 12-03-2002, 02:52 PM   #9
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Where did you get your indash kit? I have type S and bought an installation kit from Scoche and it doesn't look like that. I has a pocket instead of the door like yours.
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Old 12-03-2002, 03:59 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bass Mechanic
how is that going to help anything?
batteries do nothing for light flashing.
a battery has a static voltage of 12.8 volts the alternator runs at 14.2 volts
light flash occurs because the voltage of the electrical system fluctuates between the 14.2 and 12.8 voltages during bass beats where current is in high demand.
since you have a cap that would be the most likely reason you dont have problems. a cap will attampt to maintain the voltage at 14.2 not a battery.

also recently i learned that honda uses a different type of voltage regulation that most cars. a honda voltage regulator will wait for a change in voltage before it sends more voltage to the stator of the alternator. all alternators use this method to up the output of the alternator.
but on a honda it seems that using a cap is very bennificial because a cap has just enough storage to allow the regulator the time it needs to get the alternator running at a higher output.

even if you add another battery the only thing you gain from it is time in the parking lot with engine off and the system playing because your yellow top battery has more storage.
in fact adding another battery will only cause additional load on the alternator to charge it.
Great post. I too have misunderstood this concept for a long time. Until recently I was brainwashed by the battery hype. Thing is, I never listen to music very long with the car off, so it would not benefit me much. They are much more helpful in comps. I would imagine.

I have one little knitpick though...

Quote:
a honda voltage regulator will wait for a change in voltage before it sends more voltage to the stator of the alternator
I think the regulator actually sends current (whatever amount of amperes needed to maintain a constant voltage assuming it does not reach its' max output), not voltage to the alternator.
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Old 12-03-2002, 04:15 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by kbog

I have one little knitpick though...



I think the regulator actually sends current (whatever amount of amperes needed to maintain a constant voltage assuming it does not reach its' max output), not voltage to the alternator.
no the way all alternators work even the ones that generate electric power for the neighborhood all work exactly the same.

an alternator has field windings and stator windings unlike a generator that has feild magnets and stator windings.

an alternator makes alternating current by having a magnetic field (the stator) spinning inside the outer field windings. when magnetic lines of flux cut across the field windings it makes current flow in the field windings.
the more voltage the regulator applies to the stator windings the greater the magnetic field it creates and therefore the more current is produced in the field windings.

in most charging systems the voltage regulator is built into the alternator and monitors the voltage between ground and the output of the alternator.
when the voltage drops it increases the voltage to the stator winding to bring up the output of the alternator.

the output of the alternator is actually AC volts not DC to get DC you need a full wave bridge this consiste of 4 diodes that using a simple circuit converts the sine wave (AC) into a pulsating DC output. this is the whining sound that increases in pitch you sometimes hear when you have engine noise in your system.

also FWIW i wonder why someone never came up with a simple coil and cap filter to connect to the output of an alternator? they use them all the time in power supplies.
maybe because all the current would have to pass through tthe coil. it would have to be one nasty looking coil i guess.
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Old 12-03-2002, 04:42 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bass Mechanic
no the way all alternators work even the ones that generate electric power for the neighborhood all work exactly the same.

an alternator has field windings and stator windings unlike a generator that has feild magnets and stator windings.

an alternator makes alternating current by having a magnetic field (the stator) spinning inside the outer field windings. when magnetic lines of flux cut across the field windings it makes current flow in the field windings.
the more voltage the regulator applies to the stator windings the greater the magnetic field it creates and therefore the more current is produced in the field windings.

in most charging systems the voltage regulator is built into the alternator and monitors the voltage between ground and the output of the alternator.
when the voltage drops it increases the voltage to the stator winding to bring up the output of the alternator.

the output of the alternator is actually AC volts not DC to get DC you need a full wave bridge this consiste of 4 diodes that using a simple circuit converts the sine wave (AC) into a pulsating DC output. this is the whining sound that increases in pitch you sometimes hear when you have engine noise in your system.

also FWIW i wonder why someone never came up with a simple coil and cap filter to connect to the output of an alternator? they use them all the time in power supplies.
maybe because all the current would have to pass through tthe coil. it would have to be one nasty looking coil i guess.
Hmmm, you certainly know the workings better than I, but I still need clarification.

Voltage cannot be "sent" like you stated originally. Voltage is simply the difference in electrical potential between 2 points. If we increase or decrease the voltage, the flow of current is affected. Current can be "sent".

A voltage regulator therefore does not send voltage. It sends current to the stator windings to regulate the voltage in the charging system. The need for this is due to the changing current draw from the cars accesories, stereo or anything else drawing current.

So this statement here:
Quote:
when the voltage drops it increases the voltage to the stator winding to bring up the output of the alternator
in your latest post is still not quite right, I think. I think it should be: when the voltage drops, the voltage regulator increases the current sent to the stator winding, which in turn brings the charging systems voltage back to nominal.

I'm not an expert, but I'm good at reading. Your statement conflicts with what I have read is all...
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Old 12-03-2002, 04:56 PM   #13
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very nice! I like alot.
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Old 12-03-2002, 05:03 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bass Mechanic
how is that going to help anything?
I should have said:

Not a bit, because I have a capacitor that you can see in my pictures and put it there because I know it helps with dimming lights (not because it looks pretty and has a voltmeter on top) I've praised the benefits of capacitors in other threads and understand how they work and how batteries work and how electical systems work. I did three years of Mechanical Engineering in college before changing majors to IT, and I received an A and B in Physics 1 and 2 respectivly, I have an Optima Yellow Top (D34/78) under the hood too for more reserve capacity.

Quote:
Originally posted by phattrac
Where did you get your indash kit? I have type S and bought an installation kit from Scoche and it doesn't look like that. I has a pocket instead of the door like yours.
Mine is from a base RSX, some guy on eBay was parting out a wreck and I picked up the face, pocket and mounting bracket with all the screws for $50.

BTW, the HU is mounted on the bottom because the illumination on the deck is somewhat directional, so I really couldn't read the face too well with it on top.
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Old 12-03-2002, 05:27 PM   #15
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that looks siick as hell! i cant wait for my car !
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Old 12-03-2002, 05:52 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by alpinersx
I did three years of Mechanical Engineering in college before changing majors to IT, and I received an A and B in Physics 1 and 2 respectivly, I have an Optima Yellow Top (D34/78) under the hood too for more reserve capacity.
Oh-will-you-stop-it. I could do a search and find your resume in other threads as well. Nobody is questioning your intelligence you crazy Alpine nut!!

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Old 12-03-2002, 06:16 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by kbog
Oh-will-you-stop-it. I could do a search and find your resume in other threads as well. Nobody is questioning your intelligence you crazy Alpine nut!!

LMAO!! good one!
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Old 12-03-2002, 06:19 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by kbog
Hmmm, you certainly know the workings better than I, but I still need clarification.

Voltage cannot be "sent" like you stated originally. Voltage is simply the difference in electrical potential between 2 points. If we increase or decrease the voltage, the flow of current is affected. Current can be "sent".

A voltage regulator therefore does not send voltage. It sends current to the stator windings to regulate the voltage in the charging system. The need for this is due to the changing current draw from the cars accesories, stereo or anything else drawing current.

So this statement here:

in your latest post is still not quite right, I think. I think it should be: when the voltage drops, the voltage regulator increases the current sent to the stator winding, which in turn brings the charging systems voltage back to nominal.

I'm not an expert, but I'm good at reading. Your statement conflicts with what I have read is all...
your right a slip of the keys i should have said more current is sent to the stator windings. but FWIW if the stator has a fixed resistance then increasing the voltage will proportionally increase the current.
i have some EET background as well
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Old 12-03-2002, 06:39 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bass Mechanic
your right a slip of the keys i should have said more current is sent to the stator windings. but FWIW if the stator has a fixed resistance then increasing the voltage will proportionally increase the current.
i have some EET background as well
I'll say you have some EET background. I have no formal background and discussions like that can go over my head quickly. Glad that's cleared up. I want to run from this thread before you say something that REALLY confuses me...
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Old 12-03-2002, 07:35 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bass Mechanic
. . . unfortunatly caraudio shops and Optima battery corp are getting really rich off of these misunderstood rumors.
Thankfully no one got my money, my buddy fried his Optima by placing it in an Eclipse. The battery was too tall and he forgot to cover the positive terminal one day. The hood touched the terminal and goodbye electical system. Anyway, he gave me the battery because he was just going to toss it, it wouldn't hold a charge anymore. I took it to Batteries Plus and after some convincing it was warrantied without a receipt.

Free battery!
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Old 12-03-2002, 07:51 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by alpinersx
Thankfully no one got my money, my buddy fried his Optima by placing it in an Eclipse. The battery was too tall and he forgot to cover the positive terminal one day. The hood touched the terminal and goodbye electical system. Anyway, he gave me the battery because he was just going to toss it, it wouldn't hold a charge anymore. I took it to Batteries Plus and after some convincing it was warrantied without a receipt.

Free battery!
sweet! you knowonce when i used to live in denver there was a battery place on sheridan ave and somthing. i went there for a new battery and they had some brand new red top blems for 35 bucks. i jumped on the deal and i had that battery for about 2 years in that car. about another 3 years in another car. and then it sat on a shelf in my bnasement for another 2 years.
some guy i did an install for said he would like to buy it. i sold it for 50 bucks to him and after sitting 2 years we dropped it into the car and it started right up!
now that is one hell of a battery.

BTW we live in the same state only about 1 hour away. i would like to meet you sometime if your up to it.
i dont know many people from the boards.
i live on the east side of colorado springs.

Kevin
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Old 12-03-2002, 07:54 PM   #22
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I have a buddy who lives in the Springs, yeah meeting wouldn't be a problem as long as you promise not to kill me.

PM me!
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Old 12-03-2002, 08:01 PM   #23
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I have a buddy who lives in the Springs, yeah meeting wouldn't be a problem as long as you promise not to kill me.

PM me!
what do i seem like the violent type?
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Old 12-03-2002, 09:53 PM   #24
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Hey - while I have some intelligent people at my disposal:

One thing has confused me with batteries. Typically, red or + is considered "hot" and - is ground. But isn't electricity actually -? I remember learning in physics how in engineering they typically look at the flow the other way around, as if the + were traveling. We never went into it beyond that. How are the electrons actually flowing in the car, and whats the idea behind looking at the positives as flowing. I don't know much about this so, I'm just spewing bits.

Another thing - was talking about this w/ a good fellow. How fast does electricity travel? Someone mentioned that electricity never slows down or speeds up. I argued differently, that depending on the conductor, electricity would indeed slow down. I remember learning that electricity actually is very slow, or rather - the physical movement of electrons. Someone said that in our AC power lines, electrons just go back and forth (which makes sense) but if you total its distance its only around a foot per second. - But the entire chain of electrons is moving, and thats how it appears to be instantanious.

OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. Wassup wit da electronZ yo?

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Old 12-03-2002, 11:15 PM   #25
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Quote:
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Hey - while I have some intelligent people at my disposal:

One thing has confused me with batteries. Typically, red or + is considered "hot" and - is ground. But isn't electricity actually -? I remember learning in physics how in engineering they typically look at the flow the other way around, as if the + were traveling. We never went into it beyond that. How are the electrons actually flowing in the car, and whats the idea behind looking at the positives as flowing. I don't know much about this so, I'm just spewing bits.

Another thing - was talking about this w/ a good fellow. How fast does electricity travel? Someone mentioned that electricity never slows down or speeds up. I argued differently, that depending on the conductor, electricity would indeed slow down. I remember learning that electricity actually is very slow, or rather - the physical movement of electrons. Someone said that in our AC power lines, electrons just go back and forth (which makes sense) but if you total its distance its only around a foot per second. - But the entire chain of electrons is moving, and thats how it appears to be instantanious.

OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. Wassup wit da electronZ yo?
sure i would be happy to clear this up.
first off electrons are negitivly charged. just like magnets with opposite poles north and south like charges repel and opposites attract.

in a battery you have a positive plate and a negitive plate. since electrons are - in charge they are in abundance on the negitive plate and missing on the positive plate. this is where the definition of pos and neg comes from.

now in an atom you have a nucleus, a proton and an electron. these charges are neutral, positive, and negitive respectivly. its the amount of opposite charges that holds an atom together the electrons and nutrons. the protons are held together through another property i wont bother to explain right now.

anyway since electrons are - charged a battery is considered to be fully charged when the voltage applied to it can no longer stuff any more electrons on the negitive plate and no more electrons can be found on the positive plate.
since like charges repel the electrons are attracted to the positive plate and repelled from the neg side. as the battery drains it becomes dead when there is the same number of electrons on both plates therefore there is no more attraction or repelled action of electrons.
when a battery is dead it has exactly the same number of electrons as it did when it was charged they are just divided equally on each plate. when you charge it you are forcing the electrons to go back to the negitive plate.
you can think of voltage like water pressure. a battery charger is nothing more than an electron pump. it pumps the electrons onto the neg plate just like an air compressor fills a tank. the air in the tank wants to get to the outside due to pressure.

now over the years electronics have been taught both ways. either flowing from positive to neg or neg to pos. studying electronics from neg to pos is referred to electron flow theroy.
some people use the other method because for some reason it makes more sence to them. i was taught electron flow.

as for the speed of electricity it flows at nearly the same speed as light. i belive research has been done that has proved that by super conduction (bringing the temp very low) the speed increases. i belive it could be because the atoms are closer together.
no matter what the frequency, the current, voltage , size of wire ect electricity flows at the same speed. (approximatiy 186,000 miles per second).

what makes electrons flow is actually quite simple. any material or atom that has holes or (missing) electrons in its outer covalence shell (the last outer ring of electrons in an atom) will usually conduct electricity. a material such as copper conducts electricity because it can carry additional electrons in these holes in the outer shell. and it can give them up just the same. it is the very fact that an atom can pass electrons much like a relay race racer hands a baton to the next racer. or like a line of people handing off sand bags to fill a leak in a river bank. the atoms hand off the electrons from one atom to the next and so on.
now different materials conduct electricity differently because of the number of electrons in their outer shell. some can accept more than 1 or 2 or more electrons at the same time.

a semiconductor like a transistor works similarly silicon has a unusual property in that the atoms themselves are kind of in between if you add electrons to the atom it will conduct electricity and if you take them away by applying an opposite charge it becomes an insulator.

electrons moving in a power line do travel both directions at 60 times a second. AC is similar to taking a battery and a light bulb and flippint it back and forth 60 times a second.

music or audio signals work exactly the same way. the microphone a speaker talks into moves back and forth creating an elecronic signal that is AC it gets amplified and sent to a speaker which moves in respect to a forward or reverse direction of electron flow.

now knowing this you may better see how the above post about the battery works. any voltage presented to a battery at its terminals that is greater than its on static voltage 12.8 will cause the electrons to collect on the - plate. thereby charging it. any time you put a load on the battery or provide a path for electrons to move from + to - you will consume power from it.
in the car we can realise that the voltage at the battery terminals
determins what direction the current will flow and also the quantity.
in an air compressor example. suppose you have a air tank with 12.8 PSI in it (like a battery) and you connect a hose that has pump with 14.4 PSI on it (like an alternator) then air will fill the tank. if you hook a "T" into the hose with 14.4 on it and open a valve (like your amp) you will lower the pressure in the hose and if you lower it faster then the pump can maintain it then some air will eventually come out of the tank if the pressure falls to 12.8 PSI or lower.
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