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Old 11-04-2011, 10:36 PM   #51
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Old 11-05-2011, 03:05 PM   #52
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Old 11-05-2011, 10:49 PM   #53
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long time fan of SoHonda Garage! the attention to detail is insane. if only i were patient enough, i would incorporate as much of the same lol.
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Old 11-06-2011, 10:29 PM   #54
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Gosh... Subscribed! Can't wait to see when it's all done. Keep up the good work!
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Old 11-07-2011, 02:51 PM   #55
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Evan, are you going to be doing any modeling for the front sussy? I recently did this, very rough as it's hard to measure the center of the ball joints, and now I know why it is pretty bumpsteery:



The tie rod arm is about 17* off from being perpendicular. I need to either lower inner mounting point of arm, or remove some negative camber.
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Old 11-07-2011, 07:51 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by black dc5 View Post
Evan, are you going to be doing any modeling for the front sussy? I recently did this, very rough as it's hard to measure the center of the ball joints, and now I know why it is pretty bumpsteery:



The tie rod arm is about 17* off from being perpendicular. I need to either lower inner mounting point of arm, or remove some negative camber.
What's the final tie rod angle you're looking to achieve? And also how much camber are you running? I thought you stopped tracking the DC5.
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Old 11-09-2011, 12:04 PM   #57
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What's the final tie rod angle you're looking to achieve? And also how much camber are you running? I thought you stopped tracking the DC5.
going for 90 degrees, perpendicular to lower ball joint to upper mount.

lower BJ to upper mount on mine is 68.33 degrees @ -2.5* camber.. i have the buddy club brackets off the car right now but bumpsteer was a lot less with those and never took these measurements

i did stop tracking it, and people complain about miatas' bumpsteer when too low (mine is 1.5" lower than spec miata height), but driving both back to back, bumpsteer is worlds apart between the two cars which is why i was curious.

just did some measurements out of curiousity, the angle right now is 107 degrees so that would explain the bumpsteer. eventulally ill try the 90 degree theory and see if it improves.
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Old 11-09-2011, 02:41 PM   #58
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going for 90 degrees, perpendicular to lower ball joint to upper mount.

lower BJ to upper mount on mine is 68.33 degrees @ -2.5* camber.. i have the buddy club brackets off the car right now but bumpsteer was a lot less with those and never took these measurements

i did stop tracking it, and people complain about miatas' bumpsteer when too low (mine is 1.5" lower than spec miata height), but driving both back to back, bumpsteer is worlds apart between the two cars which is why i was curious.

just did some measurements out of curiousity, the angle right now is 107 degrees so that would explain the bumpsteer. eventulally ill try the 90 degree theory and see if it improves.
Ahh ok. But you removed the Buddyclub brackets? What brackets are you running now? Or are you talking about Buddyclub ball joints?

So you're saying the bumpsteer is worse at bad at 107 degrees vs 68 degrees? 107 is technically closer to 90 degrees so I would've thought it would have less bumpsteer. Also couldn't you lower the tie rod end mounting point to get close to 90 vs lowering the inner tie rod mounting point? Seems like there's hardly any room there, with the header being right under it, but I know real time did it.
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Old 11-09-2011, 03:11 PM   #59
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Old 11-09-2011, 07:15 PM   #60
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Ahh ok. But you removed the Buddyclub brackets? What brackets are you running now? Or are you talking about Buddyclub ball joints?

So you're saying the bumpsteer is worse at bad at 107 degrees vs 68 degrees? 107 is technically closer to 90 degrees so I would've thought it would have less bumpsteer. Also couldn't you lower the tie rod end mounting point to get close to 90 vs lowering the inner tie rod mounting point? Seems like there's hardly any room there, with the header being right under it, but I know real time did it.
had to change out the front buddy club struts, have another set on the car right now, went down to 8k to test also. i have new buddy club struts but too lazy to replace, re-align etc. eventually will because i don't remember buddy club's bumpsteering like this. the lower spring rate of 8k possibly uses more suspension movement than the previous 10k so bumpsteer could be exacerbated from that. i contemplated 12k for this reason.

the 68 degrees is from a vertical line (or it could be 22 degrees, depending which angle you look at). i guess you have to squint at that picture. this is the angle of the lower ball joint (i have buddy club ball joints) to the upper mount (pillow ball mount on the camber plate). aka kingpin axis of inclination/KPI

for example, if i remove some camber, moving the upper point towards the fender for less camber, the KPI would be closer to vertical.

the 107 is the angle of the tie rod arm in relation to the KPI.

/____
/

somewhat like that^ so the lower angle is 107 at my current height, and then 73 for the top angle.

visualize suspension movement along the KPI (lower control arm ARC needs to be accounted for but unless i remove my bumper i can't get an accurate measurement of the LCA... ) and imagine the toe settings as it compresses. theoretically, just by looking at it, if my suspension were to compress, i think it toes IN, and decompress toes OUT. i think ideally you want it to be at 90 degree to minimize toe change.

sorry, i'm obviously not an engineer so no CAD or anything lol, the last times i was dealing with angles was because i was working on a diffuser for my miata and it got me curious about the DC5.

moving the inner or outer point of the tie rod arm is complicated... inner point can be moved by a bracket (not trying to use brackets, even though i'm close friends with 0857, he's offered to let me try a set to give forum feedback but i never went through with it). only way to move the outer tie rod arm point without affecting the height is if you have the arm height adjustable. i think i've only seen this on RTR's cars, where there is a locking perch above and below it.

to keep my camber and get it closer to 90 degrees with no other changes, i'd have to lower the car. at a 5" pinch, my tires hit the liners (255s) from daily driving alone.

here's a pic. soryr paint deteriorates the quality even more lol.



green angle is 68.33 degrees
blue angle is 107 degrees
purple is 73 degrees

green line is KPI
red line is angle of tie rod arm

the original graph is "Todd's"


Evan, sorry to get your thread off topic, we will stop now.

P.S. about tracking the DC5, my last track day was with 0857, he offered to let me drive it, but we ran the same run group and i couldn't pass a session in my own car. but it def made me miss my DC5, but it needs an oil pan baffle and tranny work (5spd, 4.4 FD, open diff...)
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Old 11-10-2011, 07:25 PM   #61
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No problem man, the more informative posts in here the better! You know I like my threads to be educational

I havent begun any kind of suspension work since the car is still going to be stripped etc. Ill work on that once the car is assembled with the new components in place.

Ive actually got 3 different inner brackets that I fabricated experimenting with that very subject (tie rod angle) on my EP3 trying to get that perpendicular tie rod angle. I made it difficult for myself since I kept changing the setup (and am again this spring) lol. Hopefully one of those will work for the DC5's setup, otherwise Ill have to pick up another bracket and fab one according to the cars measurements.
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Old 11-10-2011, 08:05 PM   #62
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Old 11-11-2011, 02:13 AM   #63
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Quote:
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had to change out the front buddy club struts, have another set on the car right now, went down to 8k to test also. i have new buddy club struts but too lazy to replace, re-align etc. eventually will because i don't remember buddy club's bumpsteering like this. the lower spring rate of 8k possibly uses more suspension movement than the previous 10k so bumpsteer could be exacerbated from that. i contemplated 12k for this reason.

the 68 degrees is from a vertical line (or it could be 22 degrees, depending which angle you look at). i guess you have to squint at that picture. this is the angle of the lower ball joint (i have buddy club ball joints) to the upper mount (pillow ball mount on the camber plate). aka kingpin axis of inclination/KPI

for example, if i remove some camber, moving the upper point towards the fender for less camber, the KPI would be closer to vertical.

the 107 is the angle of the tie rod arm in relation to the KPI.

/____
/

somewhat like that^ so the lower angle is 107 at my current height, and then 73 for the top angle.

visualize suspension movement along the KPI (lower control arm ARC needs to be accounted for but unless i remove my bumper i can't get an accurate measurement of the LCA... ) and imagine the toe settings as it compresses. theoretically, just by looking at it, if my suspension were to compress, i think it toes IN, and decompress toes OUT. i think ideally you want it to be at 90 degree to minimize toe change.

sorry, i'm obviously not an engineer so no CAD or anything lol, the last times i was dealing with angles was because i was working on a diffuser for my miata and it got me curious about the DC5.

moving the inner or outer point of the tie rod arm is complicated... inner point can be moved by a bracket (not trying to use brackets, even though i'm close friends with 0857, he's offered to let me try a set to give forum feedback but i never went through with it). only way to move the outer tie rod arm point without affecting the height is if you have the arm height adjustable. i think i've only seen this on RTR's cars, where there is a locking perch above and below it.

to keep my camber and get it closer to 90 degrees with no other changes, i'd have to lower the car. at a 5" pinch, my tires hit the liners (255s) from daily driving alone.

here's a pic. soryr paint deteriorates the quality even more lol.



green angle is 68.33 degrees
blue angle is 107 degrees
purple is 73 degrees

green line is KPI
red line is angle of tie rod arm

the original graph is "Todd's"


Evan, sorry to get your thread off topic, we will stop now.

P.S. about tracking the DC5, my last track day was with 0857, he offered to let me drive it, but we ran the same run group and i couldn't pass a session in my own car. but it def made me miss my DC5, but it needs an oil pan baffle and tranny work (5spd, 4.4 FD, open diff...)
Thanks for the detailed explanation, I'll definitely do some further investigating to see what I can do in my situation. Do you have an idea what the tie rod angle in regards to the KPI is on a stock car? I'd imagine very close to 90.

My SAI should be relatively stock if not stock as I get my camber from offset lower holes instead of a camber plate. I should figure out how to measure the angle on my car and see if I can further improve overall toe control/bumpsteer even more. Right now it's really not bad as it sits to be honest but I prefer for everything to be mathematically/geometrically "perfect".

Quote:
Originally Posted by SHG_EasyE View Post
No problem man, the more informative posts in here the better! You know I like my threads to be educational

I havent begun any kind of suspension work since the car is still going to be stripped etc. Ill work on that once the car is assembled with the new components in place.

Ive actually got 3 different inner brackets that I fabricated experimenting with that very subject (tie rod angle) on my EP3 trying to get that perpendicular tie rod angle. I made it difficult for myself since I kept changing the setup (and am again this spring) lol. Hopefully one of those will work for the DC5's setup, otherwise Ill have to pick up another bracket and fab one according to the cars measurements.
Let me know how those brackets work out for you, I think I tried to one time mount 0857's relocating brackets upside down but I believe my header got in the way. You might have more clearance than me so it could work out!
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Doug builds his motors according to chota spec
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I guess there can be only one full Chota Spec.
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Old 11-11-2011, 10:39 AM   #64
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Quote:
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Let me know how those brackets work out for you, I think I tried to one time mount 0857's relocating brackets upside down but I believe my header got in the way. You might have more clearance than me so it could work out!
yeah his bracket extends outward farther than oem, and pretty far off the horizontal centerline so I can imagine there are clearance issues. The brackets I was playing with dropped the mounting point 1/4" - 1/2" from oem, an are also shorter (mounting hole closer to the rack) to compensate for more caster (shock leaning back farther than oem). I also have a stock type s manifold on my EP3 which may offer more clearance than a RH.
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Old 11-11-2011, 11:07 AM   #65
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Old 11-11-2011, 11:17 AM   #66
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Old 11-16-2011, 12:38 PM   #67
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My buddy is comin over tomorrow to help finish removing all the accessible sound deadening ad well as removing all the unnecessary brackets in the interior. Then the car is headed to the shop early next week
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Old 11-18-2011, 01:52 PM   #68
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My buddy is comin over tomorrow to help finish removing all the accessible sound deadening ad well as removing all the unnecessary brackets in the interior. Then the car is headed to the shop early next week
Very nice. I can only think back of the days when I did this on my car. When we did 0857's car prior to a cage, we filled up a trash can with crap from the interior weighing around 50 lbs.
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Old 11-18-2011, 07:32 PM   #69
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Yeah the rear seats alone are 35-40lbs. Im interested to see how much weight comes out with all the unnecessary wiring. While Im doing the cage and working with the chassis at the shop, Mike will be working on the interior harness stripping all of the un needed connectors and wiring. Once the cage is done and the chassis is painted it will all go back to my house to be built

Im very excited about running all the electronics in the car. Its one of my favorite things to do and I find it very peaceful. Ill be doing a full raychem/milspec engine harness with all the accessory data inputs integrated as well as a milspec interior sub harness for the data logger, dash, radio, etc. Should be a pretty tidy setup when all is said and done
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Old 11-20-2011, 09:54 PM   #70
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Hey guys got some updates finally! Had the guys come over and put in work getting the rest of the sound deadening and seam sealer cleaned up as well as removing some extra brackets :thumbup:

Started on the brackets by drilling out the welds with a spot weld bit, then ground down the nubs...

Frame brace brackets:







.

.

Seat Brackets:











.

.

Spare tire brackets:





.

.

So satisfying to toss all this!



.

.

Then we worked on removing the seam sealer in a few places where the cage bases will be placed etc.





.

.







.

.

Here you can see some of the factory stitch welding in key structural areas





.

.

And how she sits now. Ive also got alot of the chassis harness labeled as to what connectors and wiring is getting removed

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Old 11-20-2011, 10:14 PM   #71
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We spent the day today working on some media for SHG, including the design for the number boards. Thanks to Mike for drawing this up for us, its also going to be one of the T-Shirt designs that will be available soon

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Old 11-20-2011, 10:31 PM   #72
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Old 11-20-2011, 10:52 PM   #73
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Timtamtt is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx Timtamtt is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx Timtamtt is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx Timtamtt is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx Timtamtt is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx Timtamtt is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx Timtamtt is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx Timtamtt is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx
Looks awesome. Subscribed!
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Old 11-21-2011, 09:35 AM   #74
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Alsgotgame is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx Alsgotgame is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx Alsgotgame is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx Alsgotgame is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx Alsgotgame is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx Alsgotgame is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx Alsgotgame is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx Alsgotgame is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx
keep it up, looking great so far
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Old 12-04-2011, 02:47 PM   #75
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So the car is finally at the shop and I spent Saturday working on mounting the seat so I can make sure the cage clears it properly when I start work on it. Since the stock seats were pretty beat and resale value would have been low I decided to grab the sliders off of them to use for the race seat.

I opted for these because, well, you just cant beat OEM quality and safety. These have a perfect sliding/locking mechanism whereas most aftermarket sliders work like crap. Theyre also crash tested obviously so safety isnt a concern.


I started by tearing down the whole seat and grinding off the rivets that held the sliders to the seat frame and was left with these tidy sliders...



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Then I made mounting brackets from some angle steel and TIG'd them onto the sliders.







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Next step was to modify the Racetech side mounts to fit my brackets...



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Gave the steel a coat of paint and bolted it all up with grade 12.9 hardware (FIA aprroved)... They do look pretty trick





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Here is the seat installed, you can see I also was able to use the oem slide lever flipped upside down to clear the seat



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