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Old 03-16-2010, 03:28 PM   #1
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Water / Meth Injection with Roots Superchargers

Let me preface this story by thanking Rodney at Alcohol Injection Systems for all of the support I got. Without him, this experiment couldn’t have happened.

www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com

For those of us looking for that extra power from our motors with roots style superchargers without sacrificing safety or reliability, the application of water / methanol injection has been proven to work exceptionally well with this style of supercharger. The testing that I have performed was on a 2004 Acura RSX-S (2.0L IVTEC motor) with a Jackson Racing Eaton M62 Roots style supercharger and has led to the conclusion that you CAN USE as high as 18gph while spinning the blower at nearly 17000rpm! It should be noted that the Jackson Racing supercharging system does NOT come with an aftercooler or intercooler of any kind, so once the blower is spun past 14500rpm (this equals around 9psi for the RSX) heat and detonation becomes a very dangerous issue. With more pressure comes more heat, and more heat will require you to lower ignition or timing leading to a dramatic loss in power.

Enter methanol injection. To battle this increase in heat, I first went to several mainstream methanol injection suppliers and ordered a kit. The kit that I originally purchased was a trunk mount kit that supplied all the necessary parts for your basic water / methanol injection project.

*NOTE* - when ordering these kits they offer a “nozzle size calculator” that will usually ask for your range in horsepower to determine what size nozzle you need. These calculators are EXTREMELY general and do not take into consideration the different delivery methods of boost on the market. Turbo’s and Centrifugal superchargers deliver their boost in a MUCH different manner than a roots style supercharger, thus changing the water / methanol requirements, rendering this calculator useless if you are looking for optimal power on your roots style setup. We are spraying methanol through the compressor itself which brings the methanol into contact with the extremely hot blower casing, opening the door to dramatically increase the amount of jetting, which is the entire point of this experiment!

So my first kit consisted of a 1 gallon tank, a 150psi pump, a checkvalve, and a 4gph nozzle (250cc/min) which the calculator said was good for 200-300whp. For my mixture I mixed a 50/50 by mass solution of steam distilled water (available from any grocery store) and pure methanol.

At 9psi I noticed no problems yet very little gain from the methanol injection, so as we all seem to do eventually; I started looking for more power. From a blower speed of 14500rpm at 9psi I increased the blower speed to 15500rpm leading to 11psi. At this level of boost, the added heat became too much for the 4gph nozzle. I found after several full throttle pulls or a single pull on a hot summer day, I was beginning to see more and more detonation. Also, I noticed at the drag strip that neither my times nor my trap speeds were improving along with a dyno that showed negligible improvement from 9psi to 11psi. Needless to say I was upset.

Enter Alcohol Injection Systems (AIS)

At this point in time I began to speak with Rodney at Alcohol Injection Systems (www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com) and was introduced to the idea of increasing the amount of water / methanol I am spraying into the motor (THIS IS WHERE WE TESTED THE ACCURACY OF THE NOZZLE CALCULATORS YOU FIND ONLINE). Now I was extremely new to the idea of methanol injection so I was afraid to start spraying TOO much into the motor. Rodney explained to me how even if you spray too much, the only thing that will happen is the motor will bog. This does NOT hurt the motor! It’s simply a point in tuning where you have up to 3 different options to get this amount of jetting to work!

#1 – Increase the RPM at which the meth sprays (engagement point)
#2 – Increase the amount of methanol in your concentration
#3 – Decrease the nozzle size

If the motor bogs it means that you are spraying too much mixture for too little air. By increasing the engagement point you will allow the motor to move more air, thus allowing for more methanol injection. You may also have too much water in your mixture which does not burn like fuel. If this is the case you can increase the concentration of methanol in your mixture since methanol burns like gas and you can tune around this. If none of these work then you will have to lower the nozzle size…mainly because if you increase the engagement point too much then you will still experience detonation midrange before your methanol injection activates.

So now that I understood how to correct possible bogging issues, I then tested out three different sized nozzles from AIS (7gph, 10gph, and their largest 14gph). Since we were hesitant to bog the motor I started with the 7gph nozzle, and WOW! With little to no tuning the power increase from the 4gph to the 7gph was significant! Further tuning went on to show that even with the power gain from the 4gph to the 7gph nozzle, my intake air temperatures (IAT’s) were still increasing during the pulls…which meant more jetting could be used.

I easily swapped nozzles (with the push and release connectors it takes seconds to swap nozzles) to the 10gph and yet again another significant increase that could be felt. IAT’s were VERY close to leveling out, but out of curiosity to see how much this 2.0L motor could handle without bogging, I tested out the 14gph nozzle with engagement at 4400rpm…NO BOGGING! The motor took the 14gph nozzle like a champ and decided it was time for the dyno.

At 11psi with the original 4gph nozzle my car saw 298whp.



At 11psi with AIS #14gph nozzle the dyno showed 317whp…A 20WHP INCREASE WITH LESS IGNITION!



Ignore the torque curve in the last dyno...the RPM reader went haywire thus throwing off the torque calculation

As I did before I was still curious to see how far this eaton blower could go. After several months of research I decided that 17000rpm on the blower was the max to ensure the blower wouldn’t be overspun (there were several sources showing miata’s and other vehicles spinning the blower at 20,000rpm…however that seemed a little over the line with the blower requiring exponentially more power from the motor to spin it that fast…thus lowering the results). I swapped the necessary pulleys and pushed 16920rpm leading to nearly 14psi on the blower.

With the added boost, I was able to lower the methanol engagement point as low as 3600rpm and the motor STILL DIDN’T BOG with the 14gph nozzle THAT LOW! However IAT’s were beginning to increase during the pulls again which meant there was room for even MORE jetting!

From here I worked with Rodney and setup a dual nozzle system using the 14gph nozzle and my previous 4gph nozzle. A T-fitting from AIS and some more line and I was good to go for a total of 18gph.



I increased the engagement point to 4100rpm to ensure no bogging and BINGO…the IAT’s remained flat at 90 degrees for 4 consecutive full throttle pulls and no bogging. The power from the blower is substantially higher and I will have dyno results coming soon.

So again, for those of you looking to get more power out of your roots style superchargers, do not rely on the nozzle calculators for your choice of nozzle! I have nearly quadrupled the amount of jetting the calculator said I could use and the car has never run stronger. Also…at 18gph you run through a LOT of water / methanol so I also upgraded to AIS’s top notch 3gallon trunk mount tank (pics coming soon) which adds a sexy clean look to the entire setup!

My greatest thanks go out to Rodney for all your help and to AIS for the highest quality parts and unbeatable customer service!



*****EXTRA INFORMATION ADDED TO 1ST PAGE*****



Calculating what concentration you want to run: I recommend either a 50/50 mix or a 70/30 mix (methanol / water)

Example:
.5 gallon = 64 0z
lets split it 32/32
32 fl oz meth = 32 x 0.05159 = 1.65088 lbs
32 fl ox h20 =32 x 0.0652= 2.0864 lbs

now add 2.0864 and 1.65088 = 3.73728

divide meth lbs into total lbs 1.65088/3.73728 = 0.441733
giving you a 44% by mass mix ratio

meth is at room temp and h20 is at fridge temp (distilled)

Examples:

By mass 50% meth 1 gallon mix = 56 fl oz distiled h20 & 72 fl oz meth
By mass 55% meth 1 gallon mix = 50 fl oz distiled h20 & 78 fl oz meth
By mass 60 % meth 1 gallon mix = 46 fl oz distiled h20 & 82 fl oz meth
By mass 65% meth 1 gallon mix = 38 fl oz distiled h20 & 90 fl oz meth
By mass 70% meth 1 gallon mix = 32 fl oz distiled h20 & 96 fl oz meth
By mass 75% meth 1 gallon mix = 26 fl oz distiled h20 & 102 fl oz meth
By mass 80% meth 1 gallon mix = 22 fl oz distiled h20 & 106 fl oz meth
By mass 85% meth 1 gallon mix = 16 fl oz distiled h20 & 112 fl oz meth
By mass 90% meth 1 gallon mix = 10 fl oz distiled h20 & 118 fl oz meth
By mass 95% meth 1 gallon mix = 6 fl oz distiled h20 & 122 fl oz meth
By mass 100 % meth 1 gallon mix = you got to be kidding me, you fail
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Old 03-16-2010, 03:28 PM   #2
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Old 03-16-2010, 03:29 PM   #3
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Old 03-16-2010, 03:32 PM   #4
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This is great, Sam. They have a thread running over at 8th Gen Civic. I'll post a link for them.
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Old 03-16-2010, 03:34 PM   #5
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Great write up Sam, Thanks for taking the time.

When I used a 17gph system I saw an extra 35whp.
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Old 03-16-2010, 03:45 PM   #6
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Just sent Sam my w/m doc as well it might be posted up shortly...
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Old 03-16-2010, 06:24 PM   #7
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good stuff man! Cant wait to see the dyno results!
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Old 03-16-2010, 06:46 PM   #8
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Thanks Stwatson! Assuming I can get my car up and running, I may as well use the 14gph AIS nozzle I ordered along with my old coolingmist nozzle (3gph?).
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Old 03-16-2010, 06:57 PM   #9
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oh man I'm following this like a hawk. great results man
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Old 03-16-2010, 07:06 PM   #10
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in on juan. Nice thread sam.
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Old 03-16-2010, 07:26 PM   #11
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Nice to see this all on one place, great job stwatson
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Old 03-16-2010, 07:48 PM   #12
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How about those tapping skillzzzz and ep3 conversation..


Good work Sam.

ps. did you ever secure your nozzle? lol
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Old 03-16-2010, 09:58 PM   #13
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so i noticed you said you picked up 20whp with the 14gph jet and a 3 inch pulley over the 3.15 with less timing?

am i understanding this correctly that you could theoretically run more timing? and increase the gain to an even larger gap then 20whp? and yet still be safe as meth itself is like an octane booster as well as a temperature control?

i know the water is strictly for temp but meth does octane and temp correct?
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Old 03-16-2010, 10:21 PM   #14
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Nice write-up!

Questions, though: Where did you wind up mounting the nozzle/t-fitting for the water/meth injection?

I would think the closer to the IM (in the plenum runners) would be optimal, but curious as to what Rodney had suggested to you, if anything.

Is the water/meth pump you are running continuous? If so, isn't it engaged as soon as you have electrical power? Are you worried about it possibly pooling up in your charge piping/IM at all?
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Old 03-16-2010, 11:42 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimson_Marquis View Post
Nice write-up!

Questions, though: Where did you wind up mounting the nozzle/t-fitting for the water/meth injection?

I would think the closer to the IM (in the plenum runners) would be optimal, but curious as to what Rodney had suggested to you, if anything.

Is the water/meth pump you are running continuous? If so, isn't it engaged as soon as you have electrical power? Are you worried about it possibly pooling up in your charge piping/IM at all?
This is on a JRSC so its right before the TB and goes through the blower.
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Old 03-16-2010, 11:51 PM   #16
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Excellent write up!

What are your IATs cruising? Considering you dont have any intercooling until WOT.

What were your iats getting up to before you switched over to a 14gph?

Any way to fabricate a air to air intercooler?

Why didnt you pick up spark on the 14 gph dyno?
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Old 03-16-2010, 11:53 PM   #17
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nice!
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Old 03-17-2010, 12:10 AM   #18
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nice write up i cant wait to see what you put down. for those of you with k24's with lower redlines when are u engaging first and second stage?

edit: i see you are running two nozzles, but are u running both at the same time constantly? or is the second one on a solenoid?
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Old 03-17-2010, 02:35 AM   #19
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He is running them both without a solenoid, so it is all or none.
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Old 03-17-2010, 03:12 AM   #20
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Thanks for the very nice and detailed write up!!

One comment: On your two hp plots, the first one stops at 90 mph, and the second stops at 100mph. You can only really compare power at the same rpm/speed, so reading from the second plot at 90, it looks like you are making around the exact same amount of power as in the first plot. I'm not trying to be critical, but I think that this distinction is important!

Edit: Also, one appears to be corrected to "SAE" and the other is "uncorrected", which would likely mean that plot two is showing less power than it would if it were corrected. I don't know how much of a difference the correction factors make on the numbers. Anybody know?

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Old 03-17-2010, 03:14 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtecmike1 View Post
so i noticed you said you picked up 20whp with the 14gph jet and a 3 inch pulley over the 3.15 with less timing?

am i understanding this correctly that you could theoretically run more timing? and increase the gain to an even larger gap then 20whp? and yet still be safe as meth itself is like an octane booster as well as a temperature control?

i know the water is strictly for temp but meth does octane and temp correct?
Here is the big picture...COULD I gain more power with more ignition...probably. How much??? From the tests I have done the gains will be MINIMAL...and the risk of stressing the bottom end does not equal the power gained from pushing 3-5 more degrees of ignition.

water actually acts as a octane booster...check out the link I posted to AIS's website. I could run more timing, however the gains I saw on the dyno were not enough to justify stressing the bottom end of my motor. At 11psi 25/26 degrees was the max I decided to push. At 15psi (13psi with cooling) I am pushing 23 degrees...you wont see much more gains past that...and even if you do its not something I am going to recommend. The gains are not enough (3-7whp) to justify taking that risk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimson_Marquis View Post
Nice write-up!

Questions, though: Where did you wind up mounting the nozzle/t-fitting for the water/meth injection?

I would think the closer to the IM (in the plenum runners) would be optimal, but curious as to what Rodney had suggested to you, if anything.

Is the water/meth pump you are running continuous? If so, isn't it engaged as soon as you have electrical power? Are you worried about it possibly pooling up in your charge piping/IM at all?
You can see where I mounted the T-fitting on that last picture I posted. It has the checkvalve, then the T-fitting, then it leads to the two nozzles Im running.

As far as the nozzle location...with a ROOTS STYLE SUPERCHARGER...the nozzle location really doesnt matter since the supercharger is churning up the methanol and distributing it once the air is charged. I do NOT recommend placing the nozzles AFTER the blower as the pump will have to work against the pressure of the blower and you will not have the added cooling of the blower casing....so place all of your nozzles before the blower (order or location doesnt matter due to the blower distribution of methanol)

The pump I have has an internal regulator that keeps 150psi in the lines...once that pressure drops below 150psi it will "click" and re-pressurize the lines. So my nozzles are seeing 150psi of pressure all the time. I am not worried about pooling in my IM because my methanol ONLY sprays when I am at 5psi of boost and above 4100RPM, which at this point in time there is enough air moving through the motor to keep the methanol from pooling. With the amount of air that the K20 motor flows through its head with the roots style supercharger...you will not have a problem with pooling...and if you do...you will experience bogging WAY before you collect methanol in the manifold.

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How about those tapping skillzzzz and ep3 conversation..


Good work Sam.

ps. did you ever secure your nozzle? lol
I actually went against the instructions for my last nozzles suggestions of using a 11/32 bit and used a smaller once since my last tap stripped...and it WORKED!! I'll try to find the size bit I used this time around, but its not really important since Im not recommending to use that kind of nozzle anyway...AIS can supply a much better nozzle and even has hex heads to allow for easy removal.
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Old 03-17-2010, 03:19 AM   #22
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Thanks for the very nice and detailed write up!!

One comment: On your two hp plots, the first one stops at 90 mph, and the second stops at 100mph. You can only really compare power at the same rpm/speed, so reading from the second plot at 90, it looks like you are making around the exact same amount of power as in the first plot. I'm not trying to be critical, but I think that this distinction is important! Correct me if you were in a different gear or tire size or something though.
These were on two different transmissions so I tried to keep the ratio as close as possible.

1st graph was on the 6spd tranny and the 2nd graph was on the 5spd EP3 transmission.

The difference in ratio should actually prove that I had even MORE power for the 2nd graph than the 1st graph, since the 2nd was done with a longer gear ratio and still made more power.
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Old 03-17-2010, 03:22 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by stwatson View Post
These were on two different transmissions so I tried to keep the ratio as close as possible.

1st graph was on the 6spd tranny and the 2nd graph was on the 5spd EP3 transmission.

The difference in ratio should actually prove that I had even MORE power for the 2nd graph than the 1st graph, since the 2nd was done with a longer gear ratio and still made more power.
Yup, gotcha. I was just looking at it again and wondering why the torque was higher for plot two even though the power was less, which made me sure it had to be a gearing/tire difference. Now the fact that the second plot is uncorrected means that you were making even more power in plot two than it shows
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Old 03-17-2010, 03:26 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Flat Black View Post
Excellent write up!

What are your IATs cruising? Considering you dont have any intercooling until WOT.

What were your iats getting up to before you switched over to a 14gph?

Any way to fabricate a air to air intercooler?

Why didnt you pick up spark on the 14 gph dyno?
Cruising IAT's highly depend on ambient temperatures and how hard I've been running the car and how long the car has been sitting while the motor is hot. To answer your question in a short response...my IAT's do not exceed 110 degrees THUS far after several pulls and time for the motor to heat soak, which is NOT dangerous!.

HOWEVER!!! I have NOT had the chance to test IAT's during hot summer days! This is still new ground and I have not had ambient temperature exceed 75 degrees yet...so once the 115 degree North Carolina Summer temps come around I can NOT give you a definite answer on how HOT cruising IAT's can get. If you want my honest prediction however, I feel the cruising IAT's are not a concern since we are at low load and I've seen stock RSX's run up to 160/170 IAT's with the crappy stock air box.

Air to air intercooler...you'll have to research Redshift product for that

The dyno didnt pick up spark due to the interference from my RC750 injectors + who knows what else. There is a lot of electrical interference going on with the car and its something that Im still working on trying to figure out.

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Originally Posted by himsweet66six View Post
nice write up i cant wait to see what you put down. for those of you with k24's with lower redlines when are u engaging first and second stage?

edit: i see you are running two nozzles, but are u running both at the same time constantly? or is the second one on a solenoid?
I am engaging both the 14gph and 4gph nozzles at the same time. No stages on this setup. Which is why its so amazing that our motors can take 18gph nozzle spray at 4100rpm (granted Im pushing 15psi on the eaton, but still....thats a LOT)

Dyno is coming soon.
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Old 03-17-2010, 03:28 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by speedengineer View Post
Yup, gotcha. I was just looking at it again and wondering why the torque was higher for plot two even though the power was less, which made me sure it had to be a gearing/tire difference. Now the fact that the second plot is uncorrected means that you were making even more power in plot two than it shows


Yup!

Im just trying to be modest so people dont expect something unrealistic if they choose to try this route.
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