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Old 03-12-2014, 03:46 PM   #1
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Engine Knock: Only the Facts

ok so ive read through the other threads and they seemed pretty dated..havent seen one anytime recently and still couldnt get a solid answer so heres my question...

with a USDM k20a2 using 91-93 octane unleaded fuel, what is the amount of knock that is to be expected?

i understand that a specific number cant be garaunteed but a window would be nice.

I have kpro and my car knocks 4 times on a 3rd gear pull @ WOT and knocks 2 times @ part throttle between 2.5-3k rpm on a certain map. My buddy in the UK has a Civic Type R with the k20a2 and experiences no knock, however he uses 99 octane fuel. he tells me no knock is ok.

my very trusted and very well educated mechanic tells me that Honda engines (around the same time as k20a2) knock 7-10 times in normal operation anything above 10 is worth taking a look at...

what is the verdict?
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Old 03-13-2014, 03:02 AM   #2
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There are phantom knocks created by tuning. When performance tuning an engine there is infinite variables. If i tune the motor to run optimally from 4000-8200k and you shift at 7600 WOT dropping it into an untuned area of the powerband it could produce knock. Quite often there is knock detected at the vtec crossover point, but it is simple enough to correct all knock when dyno tuning.

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Old 03-13-2014, 07:08 AM   #3
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Some things have come up and probably wont have the extra money for a little bit...sorry bud. this guy on Hondata forum has been helping me alot and hes concerned about knock but over there they run 99 octane fuel....

i still want you to tune my car man just dont know when im gonna have the cash man. Long story short my wifes just had surgery and is recovering at home so i gotta switch some things around and cover my priorities first yo
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Old 03-13-2014, 09:23 AM   #4
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Two things:

1.) On stock cams and valvetrain you should not be getting any detonation. Only with aftermarket cams and valvetrain. Honda designed the ECU's knock-detecting algorithms around the stock valvetrain, so there id the datalog shows knock, it's real.

2.) Tuning wise, a good tuner will disable the knock sensor while the car is on the dyno and watch the torque curve, then check the spark plugs for knock. I guess you could use the onboard knock sensor to tune with on the dyno but the actual torque curve is more telling in terms of when the car is or isn't making power. If you have cams or perhaps a blower, there is so much engine noise that tuning via the knock sensor is too tedious and time consuming. At least if you can get the car on the rollers.

Just my 2-cents as always.
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Old 03-13-2014, 09:30 AM   #5
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With stock internals, running a minimum of 91 octane, You will/should NEVER knock. If you experience knock under these conditions it is most likely real.

REAL knock is typically experienced in higher gears where the load on the engine is higher and more stressful. i.e. going up a hill in a high gear at low rpms.

Here are some things that could cause real knock:
Higher compression pistons without proper timing
Bad Plugs
Dirty or clogged injectors

Phantom knock can be caused by excessive valve-train noise due to aftermarket parts and can sometime even be caused by chain slap if your tensioner is starting to go.

Have you ever heard a real knock? It's very audible and sounds like popping or a miniature explosion. If you can't hear the knock and only see them in k pro i wouldn't be too worried.

Always remember, that just because two cars are mechanically the same and are running the same tune does not guarantee that they will perform the same.
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Old 03-13-2014, 10:03 AM   #6
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2010 Admin- ok but if we disable the knock sensor then we wont know when the engine is knocking? wont that be detrimental?

stitch- i have 88a hasport motor mounts could that cuase alot of extra ambient noise? and yes i see alot of knock (via the MIL light enabled on kpro) when im putt-putting around town shifting through gears while staying in very low rpms like 5th gear @ 2.5-3k rpms

and no ive never once heard an audible knock and i pay very close attentio to my motor. i had a valve adjustment maybe 15k miles ago. my motor mounts make alot of noise in the cabin but even when im rolling around town with the music off and the windows down the knock light comes on i dont hear anything
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Old 03-21-2014, 04:42 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maverick_dc5 View Post
2010 Admin- ok but if we disable the knock sensor then we wont know when the engine is knocking? wont that be detrimental?

stitch- i have 88a hasport motor mounts could that cuase alot of extra ambient noise? and yes i see alot of knock (via the MIL light enabled on kpro) when im putt-putting around town shifting through gears while staying in very low rpms like 5th gear @ 2.5-3k rpms

and no ive never once heard an audible knock and i pay very close attentio to my motor. i had a valve adjustment maybe 15k miles ago. my motor mounts make alot of noise in the cabin but even when im rolling around town with the music off and the windows down the knock light comes on i dont hear anything
I do not think the mounts would cause knock and here's why. While the knock
sensor is sensitive, it's not THAT sensitive. It should not pick up engine cabin noise and should only reflect noises caused by the internal workings of the motor.

If you see this knock occurring specifically at a certain RPM and certain KPA and a certain cam angle, pull timing by 2 degrees around that area and see if it fixes it. If it doesn't, put your timing back and chalk it up to a false positive.

Another thing you could try, is data logging, the knock threshold and the actual knock voltage. As expected, an engine is going to make noise. The decibel of this noise is converted to voltage. The louder the noise, the higher the voltage. Your knock count will only increase when the knock voltage exceeds the knock threshold voltage. Maybe you're JUST going passed the threshold and it's a false positive. If that's the case, you can raise the threshold a little bit to avoid seeing those as knocks. Be sure not to raise it too much as you don't want to ignore real knock.
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Old 06-20-2014, 07:56 AM   #8
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Old 06-21-2014, 10:43 PM   #9
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I tuned the vehicle for him. The knock was present due to excess ignition advance in a hot humid climate.
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Old 06-30-2014, 01:22 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tkane4389 View Post
I tuned the vehicle for him. The knock was present due to excess ignition advance in a hot humid climate.
with kpro's ign vs iat tables, it should of took care of the "EXCESS" ignition advance.

By the way, why are you adding excess ignition advance anyways?
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Old 06-30-2014, 10:38 AM   #11
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with kpro's ign vs iat tables, it should of took care of the "EXCESS" ignition advance.

By the way, why are you adding excess ignition advance anyways?
I tuned the car after this thread was created. His kal had been passed around the forums and adjusted by people who didnt know what they were doing. I was referencing his prior calibration. Unless the car is in closed loop, which it wasnt, the iat and ignition compensation tables will not make adjustments.
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Old 06-30-2014, 11:40 AM   #12
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LISTEN TO TKANE THIS GUY KNOWs HIS SHITTTTT!!! just got done getting tuned by him this weekend....extremely impressed!
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Old 07-02-2014, 08:20 AM   #13
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I/H/E/IM/Kpro RSX, stock internals. Massive amounts of detonation from 2k-3k RPMs. Not so much gears 1-3, but more so gears 4-6, particularly when the motor is under load (ie you're cruising at 2k in 5th gear, and give it more throttle). Only use 92 octane pump. Car was dyno tuned but the shop who tuned it doesn't seem to know how to tune a K series motor, because Kpro logs over 600+ knock counts in a 45 min drive from work to home. At WOT it drives fine but part throttle it knocks and I can hear it so I don't think it's phantom knocks. The condition was exacerbated today when it was 100 outside, knocking like crazy all over the RPM range, whether it be down low or at 4k RPMs.

You guys think the tune is bad? Thoughts? I'm working on finding a new tuner now.
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Old 07-02-2014, 09:27 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan_nguyen View Post
I/H/E/IM/Kpro RSX, stock internals. Massive amounts of detonation from 2k-3k RPMs. Not so much gears 1-3, but more so gears 4-6, particularly when the motor is under load (ie you're cruising at 2k in 5th gear, and give it more throttle). Only use 92 octane pump. Car was dyno tuned but the shop who tuned it doesn't seem to know how to tune a K series motor, because Kpro logs over 600+ knock counts in a 45 min drive from work to home. At WOT it drives fine but part throttle it knocks and I can hear it so I don't think it's phantom knocks. The condition was exacerbated today when it was 100 outside, knocking like crazy all over the RPM range, whether it be down low or at 4k RPMs.

You guys think the tune is bad? Thoughts? I'm working on finding a new tuner now.
holy fuck that's extremely bad......go run a basemap for now until you get properly tuned you don't want to blow your motor or damage something and then getting tuned will be the least of your worries...hit up tkane he tuned my car for an awesome price too and his tunes are safe
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Old 03-14-2015, 04:55 PM   #15
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Quote:
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I tuned the car after this thread was created. His kal had been passed around the forums and adjusted by people who didnt know what they were doing. I was referencing his prior calibration. Unless the car is in closed loop, which it wasnt, the iat and ignition compensation tables will not make adjustments.
I'm pretty sure that even when in open loop the IAT and ignition compensation tables do make adjustments
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Old 06-27-2018, 05:28 PM   #16
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I’m having some bad engine knock, I have a 2003 Type-s with Ktuner and when I start up my car the knock count goes up at a constant rate, what should I do? I replaced the O2 sensor and spark plugs recently but that’s the only engine work I have done.
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Old 06-30-2018, 09:32 PM   #17
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Iím having some bad engine knock, I have a 2003 Type-s with Ktuner and when I start up my car the knock count goes up at a constant rate, what should I do? I replaced the O2 sensor and spark plugs recently but thatís the only engine work I have done.
You need to get the ECU tuned.
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