e85 Cold Start Problems? Come Inside... - Club RSX Message Board
Go Back   Club RSX Message Board > GENERAL RSX > Problems & Solutions RSX
Use the same user name on Club RSX, Club EP3, and Club ILX!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-13-2012, 07:54 AM   #1
Bflaker
Nikon & Nitrous Crew
 
Bflaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Dub Vee
Posts: 2,055
iTrader: (19)
Bflaker is an unknown quantity on c-rsx
e85 Cold Start Problems? Come Inside...

So, as most people have probably seen, a lot of us running e85 have been having problems starting when the car is cold. I've also been having a problem where even after my car finally starts it won't take any throttle input without sputtering and backfiring. BUT, after it warms up above 120ish, it runs fine and I can shut it off and start it right back up with no problems. I was to the point that I thought something was mechanically wrong with my car, even though it ran perfect when warmed up. So for the last month I have been searching the internet trying to find the solution. Some people were saying it was the timing chain tensioner, some were saying IACV, Map sensor, CKP sensor, low oil pressure, low compression, etc. etc. etc..... I checked every last thing that people said the problem could be, and none of them were my problem. So then I moved on to trying different settings in my tune to try to fix the problem. I saw where some people said to add to cranking trim, or change dead time values, or decrease the cranking pulse. I tried all that stuff and no matter what I changed the car was extrememly hard to start when cold and would have to crank and crank and crank until it finally sputtered to life. So I continued to search and search and search, and then I came across a thread on k20a.org where the guy had apparantly figured it out.

http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=85056

I tried settings similar to what he suggested, making sure that my colder temperature pulse widths were atleast 3X or more. I thought to myself,"There's no way this is gonna work." So I go to my car that's been sitting for 3 days. Upload the tune, and what do you know......it started up after a few seconds. I was so happy I could barely contain myself, but I knew not to get my hopes up. So I let the car sit again for about 16 hours this time and just went out and tried it again.......Fired right up on the second turn of the starter.

NOW.....He doesn't mention anything in that thread about changing the ECT compensation table for fueling. Since I was also having a bogging and backfiring problem when the car was cold, I figured it was because of the same reason....not enough fuel. So I increased all the values for fuel compensation based on ECT. NO MORE BOGGING!!!

At this point I am pretty confident that I have fixed the problem. The car has started twice now when cold and didn't have any problems. Here are my settings so that others can see.



__________________
03' RSX Type-S - 312whp(Nitrous) SOLD
Bflaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 04-13-2012, 08:47 AM   #2
Fzdog2
Senior Member
 
Fzdog2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sioux Falls, SD
Posts: 431
iTrader: (7)
Fzdog2 is an unknown quantity on c-rsx
I might have to try this, it takes me about 10-15 seconds on cold starts below 60 degree air temps.
__________________
'02 DSM Type S || K24A2 Rebuild in Progress || Previously 420whp/290wtq
South Dakota Tuners
K24 + Turbo Build Thread
MANual Power Steering Krew #3
Fzdog2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 10:24 AM   #3
Bflaker
Nikon & Nitrous Crew
 
Bflaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Dub Vee
Posts: 2,055
iTrader: (19)
Bflaker is an unknown quantity on c-rsx
I see your mod list, but are you running e85? If so I can pretty much guarantee these settings will fix your problem.
__________________
03' RSX Type-S - 312whp(Nitrous) SOLD
Bflaker is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Old 04-13-2012, 10:10 PM   #4
Fzdog2
Senior Member
 
Fzdog2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sioux Falls, SD
Posts: 431
iTrader: (7)
Fzdog2 is an unknown quantity on c-rsx
Yes E85 the last 3 years. When the car was still stock motor on E85 it used to start down to -10, but even 50 degrees if difficult now.
__________________
'02 DSM Type S || K24A2 Rebuild in Progress || Previously 420whp/290wtq
South Dakota Tuners
K24 + Turbo Build Thread
MANual Power Steering Krew #3
Fzdog2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 10:56 PM   #5
2010 admin
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Increase cranking fuel trim in 10% increments until there is an improvement.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 10:59 AM   #6
Bflaker
Nikon & Nitrous Crew
 
Bflaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Dub Vee
Posts: 2,055
iTrader: (19)
Bflaker is an unknown quantity on c-rsx
Quote:
Originally Posted by el78704 View Post
Increase cranking fuel trim in 10% increments until there is an improvement.
It has nothing to do with cranking fuel trim. Magnesium tried the same thing with my car when I switched and it didn't do a fucking thing. Look at the screen shots of my settings. My cranking trim is 0%. I just tried to start my car AGAIN after sitting for 20 hours and it fired up better then I can ever remember.

Plus if you adjust the cranking trim it will ALWAYS add that much more fuel during cranking no matter what the ECT temp is. The only variable in the ability for e85 to start is ECT.

I can't believe the limited number of responses to this considering how many people I've seen with this problem. It was driving me up the fucking wall and I was ready to sell the car. If you guys don't believe me, that's fine. I'll just enjoy my car and be on my way.

__________________
03' RSX Type-S - 312whp(Nitrous) SOLD
Bflaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 11:04 AM   #7
Bflaker
Nikon & Nitrous Crew
 
Bflaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Dub Vee
Posts: 2,055
iTrader: (19)
Bflaker is an unknown quantity on c-rsx
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fzdog2 View Post
Yes E85 the last 3 years. When the car was still stock motor on E85 it used to start down to -10, but even 50 degrees if difficult now.
Try the settings above and see if they help you. Mine went from taking 10-15 seconds just to fire and die, to starting instantly now no matter how long it's sat or the temp outside. Also, it happened to be 55F in my garage today when I tried to start my car and it fired up immediately. It hasn't done that since I switched to e85 last Summer.
__________________
03' RSX Type-S - 312whp(Nitrous) SOLD
Bflaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 11:11 AM   #8
josolanes
Master Member
 
josolanes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Which seat should I take?
Posts: 15,360
iTrader: (26)
josolanes might be well recognized one day on c-rsx josolanes might be well recognized one day on c-rsx josolanes might be well recognized one day on c-rsx josolanes might be well recognized one day on c-rsx josolanes might be well recognized one day on c-rsx josolanes might be well recognized one day on c-rsx josolanes might be well recognized one day on c-rsx josolanes might be well recognized one day on c-rsx
Like you said it should be related to cold temps (specifically the motor being cold). Fuel doesn't atomize as well at lower temperatures and therefore is much less efficient when the engine is cold. A stock car, for example, runs pretty rich when first started and slowly leans out (even just idling the whole time) as engine temperature increases. You need to add more fuel when the motor is cold (low ECT) so that there's a higher chance of fuel burning and allowing the car to start and idle properly when cold

I use the AEM EMS and had a hell of a time getting cold start right. AEM has you set all values (there's a whole tab with several charts and many parameters related to just starting, then another for idling). I may post a screenshot later of my idle tab. If you're interested pm me to remind me. It has charts that clearly show the % extra fuel needed


PS: and this is with just simple 93 oct pump fuel. Same principle, though, as you've seen. Changing the cold start pulse width is just allowing more fuel when cold starting and so you're seeing what I explained above but by simply forcing the injectors to flow more fuel when cold
__________________
SOLD - 2002 ABP RSX-S | RIP - 2003 DSM Base RSX
josolanes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 01:37 PM   #9
Bflaker
Nikon & Nitrous Crew
 
Bflaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Dub Vee
Posts: 2,055
iTrader: (19)
Bflaker is an unknown quantity on c-rsx
Exactly. If you click the link I posted you will find this quote from SAE,

"To keep the same engine startability as the gasoline in a cold environment by using the E85 fuel (ASTM Class-3), about 3 times the quantity of fuel should be injected or RVP of E85 fuel should be adjusted to about 108 kPa."
__________________
03' RSX Type-S - 312whp(Nitrous) SOLD
Bflaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 01:40 PM   #10
josolanes
Master Member
 
josolanes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Which seat should I take?
Posts: 15,360
iTrader: (26)
josolanes might be well recognized one day on c-rsx josolanes might be well recognized one day on c-rsx josolanes might be well recognized one day on c-rsx josolanes might be well recognized one day on c-rsx josolanes might be well recognized one day on c-rsx josolanes might be well recognized one day on c-rsx josolanes might be well recognized one day on c-rsx josolanes might be well recognized one day on c-rsx
Glad you got it sorted out of course - the rough (and very difficult) start is a bitch. I can't believe it takes 3x as much with e85! lol

Whatever works, though!
__________________
SOLD - 2002 ABP RSX-S | RIP - 2003 DSM Base RSX
josolanes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2012, 01:49 PM   #11
Bflaker
Nikon & Nitrous Crew
 
Bflaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Dub Vee
Posts: 2,055
iTrader: (19)
Bflaker is an unknown quantity on c-rsx
I know what you mean. I thought there was no way in hell it would work...and then it did. Lol. I just started my car again after sitting for 24 hours and it fired right up again. Fixing this cold start problem has renewed my love for my rsx.
__________________
03' RSX Type-S - 312whp(Nitrous) SOLD
Bflaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2012, 02:03 PM   #12
DC5808
Vtec killer + Boost!!!
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: (808) HaWaII-Sin-CITY
Posts: 3,171
iTrader: (43)
DC5808 is an unknown quantity on c-rsx
This is awesome! Should be a sticky!
__________________
Vtec killer + boost member #1

http://Speedlab.net/
DC5808 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2012, 05:13 PM   #13
LCFJ888
R.I.Pieces
 
LCFJ888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 631
iTrader: (5)
LCFJ888 is an unknown quantity on c-rsx
awesome thread.. i want to switch to e85 soon.. subscribed..
LCFJ888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2012, 08:39 PM   #14
Bflaker
Nikon & Nitrous Crew
 
Bflaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Dub Vee
Posts: 2,055
iTrader: (19)
Bflaker is an unknown quantity on c-rsx
Just to update, the car is still starting and running good with these settings. I didn't drive it for the past two months and then this past weekend I took it to a car show. Started on the first rotation.
__________________
03' RSX Type-S - 312whp(Nitrous) SOLD
Bflaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2012, 12:33 PM   #15
HondaTuner87
a2 EP3 FTW
 
HondaTuner87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: texas
Posts: 687
iTrader: (0)
HondaTuner87 is an unknown quantity on c-rsx
I am definitely going to need to check this out. Been having cold start issues since day one of switching over to e85. Ive already tried adjusting fuel @ cranking %.

It sucks that it took this long for somebody to figure this ordeal out. Thanks again bflaker!
__________________
2002 Honda Civic Si - K20a2 Powered (sold)

Current: 2009 KIA Optima LX
HondaTuner87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 05:32 PM   #16
Bflaker
Nikon & Nitrous Crew
 
Bflaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Dub Vee
Posts: 2,055
iTrader: (19)
Bflaker is an unknown quantity on c-rsx
Tested some e85 I had sitting in a container for 8 months. Still 85% ethanol. Car fired right up after sitting the same amount of time too. These settings work.

__________________
03' RSX Type-S - 312whp(Nitrous) SOLD
Bflaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2014, 04:25 PM   #17
xxyauxxdc5
DC5
 
xxyauxxdc5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 4,573
iTrader: (93)
xxyauxxdc5 is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx xxyauxxdc5 is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx xxyauxxdc5 is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx xxyauxxdc5 is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx xxyauxxdc5 is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx xxyauxxdc5 is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx xxyauxxdc5 is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx xxyauxxdc5 is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx xxyauxxdc5 is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx
increased my injector pulse to the exact numbers in pic. my car starts fine now no more bogging out or dying on cold start
xxyauxxdc5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2014, 02:29 PM   #18
Justorymes
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: West allis, WI
Posts: 33
iTrader: (0)
Justorymes is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx Justorymes is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx Justorymes is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx Justorymes is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx Justorymes is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx Justorymes is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx Justorymes is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx Justorymes is a jewel in the rough of c-rsx
I'm going to try this ass soon as I can, I tuned my car on e85 myself (just a base tune) and it's been fine up until a few weeks after making the switch I noticed my cold starts (sitting over night) are taking up to 5 seconds and gets worse when you open the throttle plate. I'm not sure that I will need to go quite as aggressive maybe due to altitude or something but I will defiantly need to try this.

I was also concerned about changing the "Cranking Fuel trim" for the same reason you stated, I don't want to flood my engine out if I starts just fine above 90 degrees.
Justorymes is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
cold , e85 , inside , problems , start

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:01 PM.


Privacy Policy  |  Disclaimer Notice
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2001-2012, Club RSX, Inc. All rights reserved worldwide.
This website is owned and operated by Club RSX, Inc.
Club RSX, Club EP3, and Club ILX are not affiliated with American Honda Motor Co., Inc.