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Old 07-05-2007, 04:59 PM   #1
Oside Jimc
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S/C + Nitrous: A Users Guide

I have been getting a lot of PMs requesting details on how to implement Nitrous with a supercharger so I thought a thread to detail how this is best implemented within the supercharger forum would be a good idea. My goal here is to suggest ways to implement your system, plus provide others a venue to add their suggestions, in 1 central location for power crazed S/C junkies to find simply.

Blower + Juice is an excellent power combo, the cooling from the nitrous allows you to gain more HP than just what is provided by the juice alone (I gained almost 100hp from a 50 shot), the actual amount gained is a function of your boost level and the shot size, there is not a simple calculator so expect your results to vary. The down side is that nitrous is a wild beast, fun to use but it has only one goal life, to blow your engine into kibbles-n-bits, keep this bitch on a short leash and it is your slave, lose focus for a second and you'll be shopping for a new engine, more on this later.

To do this I'm going to make certain assumptions:
1. You have k-pro, if you do not have k-pro and have a blower then you are NOT a candidate for nitrous, sorry that's just how the weenie wiggles.

2. You have basic electrical knowledge and wiring skills, if you do not then please find someone that does.

3. You have a skilled tuner at your disposal and are willing to actually use him. Tuning nitrous requires a dyno. Period.

4. You can figure out how to mount the bottle, solenoids and route the hoses for yourself, there's lots of ways to do this so I'll encourage guys that have done it to post their installation details.

5. Since CRSX does not currently sell Nitrous components I’m going to give part numbers from Summit Racing, if that changes I’ll be happy to substitute CRSX part numbers.

6. I also assume you will read EVERYTHING, if you do not or are too impatient then it sucks to be you.

7. WARNING: Nitrous is not for the faint of heart, bad shit happens FAST on the juice, take the following as a warning:

Here is your piston:


Here is your piston on Nitrous:


You have been warned.

OK now that we've scared the pussies away let's get to the fun stuff!

To use nitrous with a blower you will want to use a dry shot, this means that you are just going to spray juice and let k-pro add the extra fuel required. A good way to get a dry system is to purchase a basic universal wet system and convert it to dry by deleting the fuel components (I sold mine on eBay and made back almost $100) and using a single fogger nozzle (p/n NOS-13500NOS) and the appropriate mounting collar (NOS-17283NOS), Guys have asked about using the ZEX systems, personally I do not like them, the “brain” module they provide doesn’t seem to work well with k-pro (it is really designed for basic wet implementations). I like to keep things simple so I prefer just a basic system with regular solenoids.

Heater or no heater? You always want to tune your nitrous system at the same conditions, that means you need constant bottle pressure. To do this you need a PRESSURE REGULATED bottle heater

Purge or no purge? It serves very little useful purpose, but it sounds / looks cool so I have one but is not at all mandatory.

Opener or no opener, good for spontaneous street racing (bad thing) and also makes bottle refills a pain in the ass so I give then a tuumbsdown.

What do I need for supporting modifications? The most critical supporting mod is the fuel system. Not enough fuel = boom so my suggestion is a Walbro + at least 650cc injectors (750 is better. I ran 11psi + 50 shot on 650s with a 95% duty cycle. You will also want a race header for anything over a very small shot (say 35). The intense exhaust temps from spray will not be kind to your cat. Colder plugs are also mandatory, my best experience has been with 9 range plugs. Doug @ Hondata also turned me on to these crazy plugs:

Surface discharge plugs, also available in 10 & 11 heat ranges, best of all, no exposed electrode to melt or insulator tip to get damaged (common issues with minor nitrous mis-adventures)
Beyond that I have not specific recommendations for intake or catback.

Now lets mount this shit, go ahead and mount the bottle, solenoids, lines, etc in the manner you prefer. Install the mounting collar in your intake as far from the throttle body as practical, but after (relative to air flow) the IAT sensor, it is delicate and does not like to get hosed down by -164ºF liquid nitrous. Then install the nozzle into the collar with the nozzle opening pointing directly at the throttle body, I use a red loctite.to keep it from spinning when I tighten the hose, after you re-install your intake install a jet then connect the -3 hose from the output of the solenoid to the nozzle and you are done (with the mechanical part)

Here are a couple of shots showing how my nozzles are installed in my CAI:




You might notice that I took a dremel are CAREFULLY massaged the parts of the mounting collar inside the CAI so they (in theory) are less disruptive to the air flow.

Now you have the mechanical installation done it’s time for the wiring, here is a diagram I’ve done for the Nitrous FAQ that shows a suggested implementation for your wiring.



Please note that the diagram of the ‘E’ connector in the diagram shows the connector upside down relative to how it is installed in the ECU.

I get a lot of questions regarding the numbering of the relay pins, I don't know how to make it easier than this:



EDIT, Additional Wiring Notes:
To connect the relay and arming switch tou need to cut the wires coming from the ECU, cut then as far from the ECU as possible so you have as much wire as possible to work with. You then abandon the portion of the wire going into the dash harness, and connect your arming switch and relay wires to the remaining piece of wire going to the ECU 'E' connector. Here is a picture to illiustrate:



Like the bottle there are a number of places to mount the switches, I prefer the little panel above the console where the cigarette lighter is located, but do what you prefer.

Well so far so good, the system is mounted and the wiring is done, it’s make this thing work.

First you have to select a jet size, jets are marked in thousands of a inch, NOT IN SHOT SIZE. So a jet marked 50 is a 0.050 diameter jet (just shy of a 100 shot!!!, pity the fool that mistakes this for a 50 shot). Here are some basic shot sizes:
35 shot = 0.031
50 shot = 0.035
75 shot = 0.041
100 shot = 0.052
But you are not limited to just these sizes, you can purchase jets in virtually any size in 0.001 increments. For starting I suggest starting small and working up, yes this burns more juice and expensive dyno time, but it helps to keep the rods in the engine. Another common question is “how big of a shot can I safely run?” The honest truth is 0. If you want 100% safety nitrous is not for you. Reasonable shot size with a blower on pump gas is probably up to a 50 shot, after that fuel quality becomes an issue. If you want something extra for a track day and are willing to part with the $$ for a 5 gallon can of C16, or a few bottles of octane booster (although IMO this approach is sketchy) you options improve. I ran a 0.042 jet on 11psi quite well on 100 octane unleaded, but with a 0.047 jet I littered the floor of the shop with now spare engine parts.
100 shot on dyno We do believe that the primary cause of this failure was engagement at 3500rpm, in theory a higher engagement RPM would have reduced the instant torque to a level the rods could handle, then again maybe not. The question punk is "do you feel lucky?"

Tuning spray with a blower is somewhat tricky, first forget the suggested fuel values Hondata provides, that’s for N/A suckers. The cooling from the spray means you need more fuel (and get more power). I’ve found that about 250% of the suggested amount is a good starting point (Again, START WITH A SMALL JET!). Retard ignition about 4 degrees (35 shot) to start and program Engine speed (start with a narrow window, like 5500-7500) Load (-0.5psi-whatever your system maxxes at, but remember the spray will add 1-2psi), TPS (95%-110%), and vehicle speed. Select E22 as the arming imput and E21 for output control (IF you followed my diagram), download, let the bottle heat to pressure and make runs, I prefer tuning nitrous to 11.5 lambda, if you fuel is not lean and there are no crazy knocks then open the engine speed window to the actual RPM range you want to run (stop the spray about 500rpm before your rev limit) and adjust the fuel as needed. Tune fuel then play with ignition, do not just tune for knocks, nitrous generates insane cylinder pressure so you have to be careful to not over advance timing. Also make sure the bottle is back to pressure before the next run, and once the bottle is below ½ full it is useless for tuning since as bottle capacity goes down the amount you spray also goes down so you might think everything is fine, then put in a full bottle and BANG! If you can borrow an extra bottle for tuning that is the best deal, then you can verify your tuning on a full bottle before you hit the street. Kmanager v1.2.2.6 introduced fuel and ignition based on RPM, this should be very useful, but I have not had the opportunity to use this feature at this time.

Once you are done with dyno tuning you will probably need to experiment with the minimum speed and RPM for engagement to solve your new and unimproved traction nightmare.

Troubleshooting:
Frequently you install everything, it seems good but the system will not spray when you hit the dyno, what now? First turn the bottle valve off. You need to datalog and check “N2O Arm 1” and “N2O On 1”. “N2O Arm 1” is what k-pro sees in regard to the arming switch so it should change from Off to On as you flip the switch. If that works make a run (with the bottle valve still off) and verify that “N2O On 1” changes from Off to On when the nitrous parameters are met. If it does not go on then you need to carefully look at the nitrous parameters (helps to have them all in 1 graph) because something is set wrong (90% of the nitrous issues I’ve seen relate to this!). If “N2O On 1” does go to On then you have a wiring problem. A good troubleshooting aid is a small 12v lamp from radio shack used in place of the solenoid, if you can make the light go on you can make the solenoid go on (In fact I now have them permanently installed in my car in parallel with the solenoids since solenoids fail and fuses blow).

OK you’ve had fun with this but now you want more power, now what? The answer may be a dual stage system. Dual stage provides the benefit of allowing a larger total shot, while spreading out the engagement over different RPM and speed ranges, for example I spray my 1st stage in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gears from 4500-9000rpm/ I spray my 2nd stage in 3rd and 4th only, and from 6500 to 8800 rpm. This gives me traction in 2nd, plus when I shift from 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 4th there is a slight delay between shots to assist with traction.

So how to implement a dual stage system? You need to buy the following (my not be inclusive, also this list assumes you are using a -4 feed line):
Solenoid
Basic 30a relay (from Autozone, Kragen, whoever)
-4an ‘Y’
2x 12” -4an hoses (longer if solenoids are not close together)
-3an hose long enough to connect new solenoid to intake
1/4npt to -4an fitting
1/8npt to -3an fitting
Nozzle and mounting collar
Jets as needed

Install the fittings into the solenoid as needed (-4 to feed, -3 to outlet, should be just like your original solenoid) then mount the solenoid.
Detach the feed from your original solenoid and connect the ‘Y’ to your feed, then use the -4an hoses to connect the ‘Y’ to your solenoids.
Install the mounting collar in your intake as close to practical to the opposite side from your original nozzle, this helps to distribute the nitrous more evenly. Install the nozzle in the collar then re-install your intake, install a jet then the -3 line goes from the solenoid output to the nozzle.

Now it’s time for fun with wiring, the 2nd stage is similar except control is from ECU pin E20 and due to “quirks” associated with E20 it is best to change the switched 12v supply for the relays so it comes from the output of the arming switch. The reason for this is that E20 goes active when you download a new calibration (ECU feature that Hondata can not change), so without this change you would spray whenever you download a new cal, this way you just have to remember to dis-arm the system (as you should do anyway) and there is no way for E20 to energize the solenoid. In addition some older versions of Kmanager require the you select “Invert Output” in the nitrous control panel associated with E20 or it get energized all the time, this way you can download, then (with the engine off and the bottle valve closed) you can flip the arming switch and listen for the solenoid engaging.



Tuning a dual stage is similar to a single, just twice the opportunities to screw it up. First thing is you now have 2 nitrous parameter windows, 1 for each stage. The fuel and ignition values you input are additive when both stages are active (i.e. if stage 1 pulls 2 degrees of timing and stage 2 pulls 3 degrees then you have a total retard of 5 degrees when both stages are active). The best way to start is to use 2 jets of the same size, if you do not have a tune for this jet size then you need to disable stage 2 by setting the Vehicle speed to something you will never hit (195-200mph) and tune the first stage, then use the fuel value for stage 2, add additional retard then needed by stage 2 (Required retard is not a simple additive thing, if a 35 shot needed 2 degrees then 2 35 shots will need more than 4 degrees!!!), set the Vehicle speed to something meaningful and tune stage 2. You will find that for 2 stages the same size that the 2nd stage will need less fuel so plan on some time to tune (Have that 2nd bottle handy!).

Edit: I'm adding a jet size calculator, this spreadsheet shows the shot size of many common jets, as well as total size for dual setups, the most useful feature is a fuel calculator at the bottom, this lets you input a known size and fuel for a known setup, then you can enter the size you want to move to and it calculates an approximate starting value for the fuel needed for the new size.

Lastly I want to give major credit to wdsonny, he was the pioneer on this slippery path and without his input this would have never happened!
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Old 07-05-2007, 05:01 PM   #2
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This is why I hang out in the supercharger forum. Props to you Jim.
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Old 07-05-2007, 05:04 PM   #3
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:giggitygiggity:

Good Read
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Old 07-05-2007, 05:08 PM   #4
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well done, thanks for write up
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Old 07-05-2007, 05:52 PM   #5
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Very nice, good guide for non SC n2o guys as well, especially the dual stage writeup. Thanks for the info.
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Old 07-05-2007, 06:37 PM   #6
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Very informative. Cleared up many questions of mine. Thanks
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Old 07-05-2007, 09:36 PM   #7
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Never try to spray if your boost only A/f is 10.5 already. You won't get much out it, especially if you are running C16 and adding 600fuel and retarding 4 degrees. As it stands. I am using a 3inch b/p with stock A2 c/p (11psi) and a 0.032" nitrous jet (40shot?). The car moves. I add 200 fuel and retard 2 degrees, 6000-8000, 2-16psi, 85-115%TPS and 60-160mph. It is so much fun when shifting gears from 2nd to 3rd and you hit 6000RPM at full boost and the car just lurches forward. Kick in the nuts. Going to rejet for 75 this weekend and see what happens.
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Old 07-05-2007, 09:44 PM   #8
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thanks for all the great information jim
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Old 07-06-2007, 12:30 AM   #9
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Good stuff.
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Old 07-06-2007, 12:31 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wdsonny View Post
Never try to spray if your boost only A/f is 10.5 already. You won't get much out it, especially if you are running C16 and adding 600fuel and retarding 4 degrees. As it stands. I am using a 3inch b/p with stock A2 c/p (11psi) and a 0.032" nitrous jet (40shot?). The car moves. I add 200 fuel and retard 2 degrees, 6000-8000, 2-16psi, 85-115%TPS and 60-160mph. It is so much fun when shifting gears from 2nd to 3rd and you hit 6000RPM at full boost and the car just lurches forward. Kick in the nuts. Going to rejet for 75 this weekend and see what happens.
vid of the juice kicking in
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Old 07-06-2007, 12:34 AM   #11
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I'll video if he takes me for another ride
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Old 07-06-2007, 12:38 AM   #12
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Quote:
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I'll video if he takes me for another ride


Might convince me to blow some more money into this car

750CC, 35 Shot ne 1?
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Old 07-06-2007, 12:41 AM   #13
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great write up. I propose this one for a "Sticky"
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Old 07-06-2007, 05:51 AM   #14
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plus rep for you jim
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Old 07-08-2007, 01:47 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wdsonny View Post
Never try to spray if your boost only A/f is 10.5 already. You won't get much out it, especially if you are running C16 and adding 600fuel and retarding 4 degrees. As it stands. I am using a 3inch b/p with stock A2 c/p (11psi) and a 0.032" nitrous jet (40shot?). The car moves. I add 200 fuel and retard 2 degrees, 6000-8000, 2-16psi, 85-115%TPS and 60-160mph. It is so much fun when shifting gears from 2nd to 3rd and you hit 6000RPM at full boost and the car just lurches forward. Kick in the nuts. Going to rejet for 75 this weekend and see what happens.
So did you re-jet as yet?
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Old 07-09-2007, 12:39 AM   #16
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Very nice Jim. I think a lot of the confusion on the questions I've seen though are regarding which pins on the relay go to which line. Both diagrams you have are awesome but the first pic only shows 4 wires which aren't numbered running from the relay to the solenoid, switched 12v, +12v from battery and e21 on ECU.

There are 4 pins used on the relay. Pin 30, Pin 85, Pin 86 and Pin 87. There's a lot of conflicting information on this on the site, Hondata's site and various diagrams. Here are some examples

Hondata's Diagram
Pin 30 -----> 12v Switched
Pin 85 -----> E21 (ECU)
Pin 86 -----> 12v Switched
Pin 87 -----> Nitrous Solenoid

The diagram from knwldge54 the other day was slightly different and I think you pointed out his flaw. He corrected it to the following.
Pin 30 -----> +Battery 12v constant
Pin 85 -----> E21 (ECU)
Pin 86 -----> 12v Switched
Pin 87 -----> Nitrous Solenoid

Can't find the other thread but I printed it. The thread was another guy who asked for confirmation on the pins for the relays and nobody pointed out any errors with what he listed. He was way off from the above diagrams however

Pin 30 -----> Ground
Pin 85 -----> 12v switched input from switch
Pin 86 -----> Battery
Pin 87 -----> Nitrous Solenoid

So is knwldge54's diagram correct now. Assuming both Pin 86 and the arming switch's power feed ties together at the black/yellow switched power at the ignition?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Oside Jimc View Post
I have been getting a lot of PMs requesting details on I get a lot of questions regarding the numbering of the relay pins, I don't know how to make it easier than this:



[/B]

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Old 07-09-2007, 09:31 AM   #17
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Nice, this is very helpful Jim! Thanks a lot!
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Old 07-09-2007, 10:02 AM   #18
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hey jim, i got a few question after reading your post...

Quote:
Purge or no purge? It serves very little useful purpose, but it sounds / looks cool so I have one but is not at all mandatory.
How does a purge sound like, I never heard one before hah... kinda like air brakes from semi-trucks being released?

Quote:
Not enough fuel = boom so my suggestion is a Walbro + at least 650cc injectors (750 is better. I ran 11psi + 50 shot on 650s with a 95% duty cycle. You will also want a race header for anything over a very small shot (say 35).
Does this mean if you have 750cc, you won't need the Walbro fuel pump?

Quote:
Once you are done with dyno tuning you will probably need to experiment with the minimum speed and RPM for engagement to solve your new and unimproved traction nightmare.
Hmm, so does this mean you can set kpro parameter to follow conditions in TPS, GEAR, SPEED, RPM & MAP?

Say Traction is already shit in 1st and 2nd gear (*But not so bad, I can still get traction from a 2nd gear roll), so not really a point of spraying until 3rd (*or would you do it in 2nd)? l would assume you want to hit nitrous in Vtec... so this is what I had in mind:
1) WOT (90degrees to 110 degrees) for TPS position
2) Engage only in 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th gear
3) Speed 30+ mph
4) A little bit above the vtec crossover, and above the part throttle engagment... so say 5000rpm?
5) MAP range 2psi - 14psi?

A setup like the above reasonable? What's your parameter Jim?

Quote:
for example I spray my 1st stage in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gears from 4500-9000rpm/ I spray my 2nd stage in 3rd and 4th only, and from 6500 to 8800 rpm. This gives me traction in 2nd, plus when I shift from 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 4th there is a slight delay between shots to assist with traction.
I see that you engage nitrous in 2nd gear @ 4500rpm... i'll running 11psi. Without nitrous, if I floor the car in 2nd gear under any RPM, I will get torque steer but still get traction... with the nitrous, how's your setup for traction in 2nd from a roll? Still within reason?

Thanks a lot bud,

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Old 07-09-2007, 01:27 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Wrxified View Post
Very nice Jim. I think a lot of the confusion on the questions I've seen though are regarding which pins on the relay go to which line.
I updated my diagram when I posted this thread, but apparently forgot to upload it to my server, thaT is why I also took the time to post a picture of a relay with the pins marked.

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Originally Posted by joejoe3 View Post
How does a purge sound like, I never heard one before hah... kinda like air brakes from semi-trucks being released?
Yes, just a little louder.

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Originally Posted by joejoe3 View Post
Does this mean if you have 750cc, you won't need the Walbro fuel pump?
No, that is why I recommend walbro + 650 (or larger injectors), you want the walbro to handle the surge in fuel demand when the injectors go crazy as the juice hits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joejoe3 View Post
Hmm, so does this mean you can set kpro parameter to follow conditions in TPS, GEAR, SPEED, RPM & MAP?

Say Traction is already shit in 1st and 2nd gear (*But not so bad, I can still get traction from a 2nd gear roll), so not really a point of spraying until 3rd (*or would you do it in 2nd)? l would assume you want to hit nitrous in Vtec... so this is what I had in mind:
1) WOT (90degrees to 110 degrees) for TPS position
2) Engage only in 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th gear
3) Speed 30+ mph
4) A little bit above the vtec crossover, and above the part throttle engagment... so say 5000rpm?
5) MAP range 2psi - 14psi?

A setup like the above reasonable? What's your parameter Jim?
Everybody's engagement parameters will be somewhat different depending on application, shot size, traction available, etc.

Generally you anly want the juice at full throttle so set TPS accordingly

You use vehicle speed to control which gears get the spray.

You want to use the RPM minumum to ensure that you do not spray at too low on RPM for your engine to handle the shot.
Max RPM should be 200-500rpm below your rev limiter.

MAP range for a supercharger is generally -0.5psi to whatever the max you MAP can read, usually this feature is most useful for a turbo system using nitrous to spool the turbo.

So a setup like you propose would be reasonable, but may not be ideal for a specific application.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joejoe3 View Post
I see that you engage nitrous in 2nd gear @ 4500rpm... i'll running 11psi. Without nitrous, if I floor the car in 2nd gear under any RPM, I will get torque steer but still get traction... with the nitrous, how's your setup for traction in 2nd from a roll? Still within reason?
I do not use nitrous from a roll, I have no traction in any gear, standing or rolling with street tires if I use nitrous, I can follor it at 100 in 5th and light up the tires, but my car is a little different than average (to say the least). Most cars using nitrous on street tires will only want to spray in 3rd or higher.
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Old 07-09-2007, 01:32 PM   #20
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thanks jim

so that means input the speed the car is going just after you shift into 3rd at redline correct?

Also, that means I should be runnin g750cc + walbro?
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Old 07-09-2007, 01:49 PM   #21
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It's threads like these that make me love forums. Jim, I have the same question joejoe3 does. If i'm hitting about 12psi, and i have 750cc injectors, and I install the 255 Walbro (making sure this is the right one), do you think i can run a 35 or 50 shot with less than 95% duty cycle?

Thanks for your help/input
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Old 07-09-2007, 02:02 PM   #22
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i think our duty cycle should be lower... consider Jim's hitting 95% duty with his 650cc + walbro setup.
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Old 07-09-2007, 02:08 PM   #23
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Quote:
Not enough fuel = boom so my suggestion is a Walbro + at least 650cc injectors (750 is better. I ran 11psi + 50 shot on 650s with a 95% duty cycle. You will also want a race header for anything over a very small shot (say 35).
ah i didnt read it correctly, i apologize.

then this means 11psi + 750's + walbro + anything up to 50 shot = ?? ...
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Old 07-09-2007, 02:21 PM   #24
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Lets sticky this.
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Old 07-09-2007, 05:36 PM   #25
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It's threads like these that make me love forums. Jim, I have the same question joejoe3 does. If i'm hitting about 12psi, and i have 750cc injectors, and I install the 255 Walbro (making sure this is the right one), do you think i can run a 35 or 50 shot with less than 95% duty cycle?

Thanks for your help/input
Not to speak for Jim but I can say I've been toying with mine for the last the 2 weeks. On 9psi plus an 80 shot of N20 I'm only at 70% duty cycle and I'm running the 750cc injectors with the stock pump. That's pulling 5 degrees of timing and adding 1250 units of fuel and my AF ratio line is straight as an arrow at 11.5:1. I disconnected the arming switch this past weekend though because I was blowing a fuse that the horn and tail lights run on.

Don't ask. Looking at Jim's diagram though now I'm going to be good to go. Just need to get in there tonight with the soldering gun and make a couple changes.

I'd be surprised if you are any higher than my duty cycle with 2psi higher boost and 30 shot less of N20.
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