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Old 10-25-2008, 04:02 AM   #1
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TSX Inlet cam test

Having read many time about running a TSX inlet cam (14110-RBB-A00) with a A2 exhaust cam, I though I would give it a try.

the engine I used for this is a Darton sleeved K20A2, 89mm bore with std 86mm stroke, 11.5cr, DC5 JRSC intercooled, K24cp and 3.1sp, running ~11.5-12Psi.

this engine has done some work, and the map has had some serious time spent on it.

I dyno’ed this on a hub-dyno (rotatest), and then changed the inlet cam, and ran it up again (on the same dyno), spent some time on the map, both runs then corrected to DIN 70 010.

Results speak for themselves, suffice to say, I won’t be trying this again!

Last edited by Scuffers; 10-25-2008 at 04:06 AM..
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Old 10-25-2008, 07:36 AM   #2
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So this comparison is between the TSX intake cam and the A2 intake cam?

I don't recall the difference between the two. Does the TSX cam have more lift? More duration? Or both?
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Old 10-25-2008, 07:49 AM   #3
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Whoa, a loss of power..... didn't see that one coming. Don't people usually see a slight increase with the ITR cam, and the TSX cam is supposed to be even better.
Would using the TSX exhaust cam also, make any difference
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Old 10-25-2008, 08:22 AM   #4
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Interesting results - slight gains all the way to 5500 rpm the low end but losses up top similar to the low-end gains.

How much time did you spend on the map trying other cam angles? Is this the best possible result you achieved with the TSX cam?

Last edited by zurmagus; 10-25-2008 at 08:27 AM..
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Old 10-25-2008, 11:15 AM   #5
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according to this graph it seems like you gained power across the entire board and massive toq as well but then PEAK power is what drops off.

http://www.dyno-plot.co.uk/dyno/dyno...link/index.htm
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Old 10-25-2008, 11:51 AM   #6
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Did you do cam angle tuning? If not then you might have not gotten everything out of the cam. I found the ITR cam wanted less advance than the K20A2 cam.
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Old 10-25-2008, 11:53 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LickyMYwalker View Post
according to this graph it seems like you gained power across the entire board and massive toq as well but then PEAK power is what drops off.

http://www.dyno-plot.co.uk/dyno/dyno...link/index.htm
I don't think that's right chart.
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Old 10-25-2008, 12:00 PM   #8
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i clicked the intercooled k20 with tsx inlet cam and the regular intercooled k20 and got the graphs. maybe he can shed more light on this
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Old 10-25-2008, 12:07 PM   #9
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Old 10-25-2008, 12:17 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oside Jimc View Post
Did you do cam angle tuning? If not then you might have not gotten everything out of the cam. I found the ITR cam wanted less advance than the K20A2 cam.
yes, it needed some slight changes, but nothing significant, cam angle was at best at almost the same point as the A2 inlet cam.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zurmagus View Post
I don't think that's right chart.
it's not, that's a different engine...

the link I posted Here is the right one.

the other one is a stock K20A2 with intercooler and JDM (K20A) cams fitted.
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Old 10-25-2008, 12:37 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuffers View Post
yes, it needed some slight changes, but nothing significant, cam angle was at best at almost the same point as the A2 inlet cam.

it's not, that's a different engine...

the link I posted Here is the right one.

the other one is a stock K20A2 with intercooler and JDM (K20A) cams fitted.
Curious:

Could you post a screen shot of your cam angles before and after tsx cam install?

Maybe someone can point out something you might have missed?
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Old 10-25-2008, 12:46 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPSlick View Post
Curious:

Could you post a screen shot of your cam angles before and after tsx cam install?

Maybe someone can point out something you might have missed?
with respect, no.

Why are you assuming I have missed something? this is not rocket science, it's basic tunning stuff.

Long and short of it is that despite all the talk, this is the first time anybody (AFAIK) has actually done the back to back on this, and the results are not what people have been told/expecting, personally, it just goes to show you can't take this stuff as read untill you have either done it yourself or seen somebody elses un-ambigous testing.

So far, JDM's (K20A) are the best I have tried, Here is the direct comparision between two K20A2 engines, only difference is one has JDM cams fitted.

Trying some Toda A3's next week, and I expect these to be marginally better still, but I could be wrong...

Last edited by Scuffers; 10-25-2008 at 12:54 PM..
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Old 10-25-2008, 01:03 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuffers View Post
with respect, no.

Why are you assuming I have missed something? this is not rocket science, it's basic tunning stuff.

Long and short of it is that despite all the talk, this is the first time anybody (AFAIK) has actually done the back to back on this, and the results are not what people have been told/expecting, personally, it just goes to show you can't take this stuff as read untill you have either done it yourself or seen somebody elses un-ambigous testing.

So far, JDM's (K20A) are the best I have tried, Here is the direct comparision between two K20A2 engines, only difference is one has JDM cams fitted.

Trying some Toda A3's next week, and I expect these to be marginally better still, but I could be wrong...
Just trying to help. Im not assuming you missed something, TAKE IT EASY, everyone makes mistakes or slips up on something.

If your not willing to show what you are running, then dont bother posting, because all we know is you DID make a mistake, and no one can help you then if we dont know what you did.
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Last edited by JPSlick; 10-25-2008 at 01:56 PM..
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Old 10-25-2008, 01:14 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPSlick View Post
Just trying to help. Im not assuming you missed something, TAKE IT EASY, everyone makes mistakes or slips up on something.

If your not willing to show what you are running, then dont bother posting, because all we know is you DID make a mistake, and no one can help you then if we dont know what you did.
Sorry?

where did the attitude come from? you some sort of Board God or something? we all have to bow to your superior knowledge before posting anything?

People can decide from themselves what they make of this, I am not trying to sell you shit or the like, just posting up what I have found, way I see it, unless you have done the same and have some valid input on this, butt out with your you DID make a mistake bull.
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Old 10-25-2008, 01:25 PM   #15
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Old 10-25-2008, 01:28 PM   #16
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I wonder if the fact that the K24 is such a deeper-breathing motor than the K20 has something to do with this? After having owned both, the K20 definitely seems "peakier" to me in terms of where it's power wants to be. Thanks for posting your findings, Simon.
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Old 10-25-2008, 01:41 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erik loza View Post
I wonder if the fact that the K24 is such a deeper-breathing motor than the K20 has something to do with this? After having owned both, the K20 definitely seems "peakier" to me in terms of where it's power wants to be. Thanks for posting your findings, Simon.
interesting thought...

Not sure really, all the plot's I have for A2 cam'ed engines pretty much show the same curve (all be it with different absolute numbers), for example here are 4 all using A2 cams, from a stock K20A2 non-intercooled to a 2,257 intercooled.
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Old 10-25-2008, 01:46 PM   #18
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interesting thought...

Not sure really, all the plot's I have for A2 cam'ed engines pretty much show the same curve (all be it with different absolute numbers), for example here are 4 all using A2 cams, from a stock K20A2 non-intercooled to a 2,257 intercooled.
I am running a Z1 intake came and A2 exhaust cam. So, not as hot as the TSX unit you have but still hotter than A2. My local friend, STLunatic, does have this TSX cam. Our motors are practically identical and will both be intercooled soon. I'll see that we get some dyno graphs posted and possibly we can see if the K24 likes this TSX intake cam more than the ITR-profile one.

This is all just evidence to me of how much more there truly is to be learned about Roots-power on K20's. We are in the infancy of it.
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Old 10-25-2008, 02:21 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuffers View Post
with respect, no.

Why are you assuming I have missed something? this is not rocket science, it's basic tunning stuff.

Long and short of it is that despite all the talk, this is the first time anybody (AFAIK) has actually done the back to back on this, and the results are not what people have been told/expecting, personally, it just goes to show you can't take this stuff as read untill you have either done it yourself or seen somebody elses un-ambigous testing.

So far, JDM's (K20A) are the best I have tried, Here is the direct comparision between two K20A2 engines, only difference is one has JDM cams fitted.

Trying some Toda A3's next week, and I expect these to be marginally better still, but I could be wrong...
so that graph is a comparison between two jrsc engines with same mods just both intake and exhaust k20a cams in one, correct? if so, 20whp diff is kinda a big deal, no? I'm just looking at the bigger picture, maybe its just me

Oh and thanks for posting results on the tsx intake cam. Real proof > theory
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Old 10-25-2008, 02:35 PM   #20
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so that graph is a comparison between two jrsc engines with same mods just both intake and exhaust k20a cams in one, correct? if so, 20whp diff is kinda a big deal, no? I'm just looking at the bigger picture, maybe its just me
yup, both are the exactly same setup, one with both intake and exhaust cams from a K20A (JDM).

Appart from the obvious, the JDM camed one actually runs ~0.5 Psi less boost, ie. the engine is breathing better for the cams.
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Old 10-25-2008, 02:43 PM   #21
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yup, both are the exactly same setup, one with both intake and exhaust cams from a K20A (JDM).

Appart from the obvious, the JDM camed one actually runs ~0.5 Psi less boost, ie. the engine is breathing better for the cams.
So a pair of K20A cams might be worth getting then eh? How much boost were these engines running? Only negative seems to be that there is a slight drop in torque and power below 4500
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Old 10-25-2008, 02:51 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuffers View Post
Long and short of it is that despite all the talk, this is the first time anybody (AFAIK) has actually done the back to back on this, and the results are not what people have been told/expecting, personally, it just goes to show you can't take this stuff as read untill you have either done it yourself or seen somebody elses un-ambigous testing.

Well said!!!
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Old 10-25-2008, 03:04 PM   #23
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So a pair of K20A cams might be worth getting then eh? How much boost were these engines running? Only negative seems to be that there is a slight drop in torque and power below 4500
between 9 and 9.5Psi - within the bounds of the stock MAP sensor (both running K24cp and 3.3" sc)
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Old 10-25-2008, 03:42 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuffers View Post
So far, JDM's (K20A) are the best I have tried, Here is the direct comparision between two K20A2 engines, only difference is one has JDM cams fitted.


Have you tested any Z1 cams? From what I have read the intake is supposed to be identical to the K20A cams in lift and duration, but on a different centerline. Not sure how the Z1 exhaust compares though.
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Old 10-25-2008, 03:49 PM   #25
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Have you tested any Z1 cams? From what I have read the intake is supposed to be identical to the K20A cams in lift and duration, but on a different centerline. Not sure how the Z1 exhaust compares though.
Nope, it's on the list to try when I get some spare dyno time...
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